Episode 5
Cruise Pioneers | Revolutionising Carbon Capture
In this episode of Cruise Pioneers, host Birgit Liodden dives into one of the most pressing challenges facing the cruise industry—carbon capture. With ambitious net-zero targets set for the industry, how can the sector leverage ocean-based carbon sequestration to turn the tide on emissions?
Joining Birgit are three pioneering innovators at the forefront of carbon capture technology:
- Chase Dwyer, Founder & CEO, Carbon Ridge
- Michael Walker, CEO, STAX Engineering
- Dr. Nathan Walworth, Founder & CEO, Scape
Together, they explore the potential of carbon sequestration hubs at ports, scaling natural ocean cycles into industrialised solutions. Through a value-chain perspective, our guests share the potential of their collaboration to enable stakeholders to capture, transport, and store carbon—paving the way for a future-proof, net-zero industry.
Tune in for a forward-thinking conversation on the technological breakthroughs for carbon capture amidst the evolving regulatory landscape.
Mentioned in this episode:
TOOL's Cruise Innovators
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Transcript
>> Birgit Liodden: Welcome to the Cruise Pioneers podcast by
Speaker:tool hosted on Seatrade Cruise Talks
Speaker:podcasts.
Speaker:Hello, I'm Birgit Liadin, Sustainability ambassador
Speaker:of Seatrade Trade and founder of the Ocean Opportunity
Speaker:Lab. In this new series we will dive into the
Speaker:pioneering initiatives of cruise lines and entrepreneurs
Speaker:who move and change the cruise industry. We focus
Speaker:on real life frontrunner initiatives and power
Speaker:couples enabling crews to move
Speaker:from pollution to solution. Get on board our
Speaker:shared expedition as we get behind the scenes
Speaker:and explore how owners, founders and
Speaker:top executives move from vision to
Speaker:deployment. In today's episode we
Speaker:explore the topic and concept of carbon
Speaker:sequestration using the ocean's
Speaker:natural sequestration cycle but
Speaker:industrialising it. We explore the
Speaker:potentials for carbon sequestration hubs at
Speaker:ports and its potential for supporting the cruise
Speaker:industry in solving the carbon removal
Speaker:issue. Pre 2030we explore
Speaker:this through a value chain perspective
Speaker:with three innovators circled
Speaker:around Scape and looking at
Speaker:how actors can capture carbon and
Speaker:deliver it to scape. So with me in
Speaker:studio today we have Dr. Nathan
Speaker:Wolworth, who is an entrepreneurial climate
Speaker:scientist and adjunct professor who has studied the
Speaker:marine carbon cycle for 15 years from the
Speaker:tropics to Antarctica. He stepped into
Speaker:climate entrepreneurships 10 years ago as
Speaker:part of several founding teams including an IMPACT
Speaker:accelerator supporting diverse founders
Speaker:across renewable energy, circular
Speaker:manufacturing, AI and ocean technology.
Speaker:He was the first head of science at the
Speaker:pioneering company Vesta that conducted
Speaker:the first field trials using the mineral olivine
Speaker:for carbon sequestration. In
Speaker:2024 he spun Scape out of
Speaker:Vesta as the CEO and founder and
Speaker:he has now assembled a team of energy
Speaker:executives and earth scientists.
Speaker:And then we have Chase Dwyer, co founder and
Speaker:CEO of Carbon Ridge, a leading developer of
Speaker:onboard carbon capture solutions for maritime m and
Speaker:shipping offshore industries.
Speaker:3rd guy on board with us today is Michael Walker,
Speaker:who's the CEO of stacks, pioneer in
Speaker:maritime emission capture and control.
Speaker:Stacks patented flexible exhaust capture
Speaker:system is designed to fit on all ships
Speaker:without modification, even in the most
Speaker:congested ports.
Speaker:So we have a group of three
Speaker:really interesting innovators with us and I
Speaker:would love to first hear from you
Speaker:Nathan, talking about the pioneer
Speaker:commitments. So can you bring us
Speaker:into the world of this natural cycle
Speaker:and how SCAPE and your partners fit
Speaker:in to deliver solutions beyond what
Speaker:we have today.
Speaker:>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth: Yeah, thank you so much and really appreciate you having us
Speaker:on to talk about our solutions. so you know,
Speaker:as an original oceanographer and marine climate
Speaker:scientists, the Ocean and Earth have one
Speaker:of the largest carbon Cycles, which is actually the mineral
Speaker:dissolution of minerals like olivine and
Speaker:seawater. This carbon cycle has been regulating
Speaker:Earth's climate for billions of years. So I like to say
Speaker:it's already at scale. So the question, I think
Speaker:becomes, you know, how can we leverage this natural
Speaker:process, for the activities and
Speaker:particularly the hard to abate sectors, that we need to reduce
Speaker:emissions around? For example, this carbon cycle
Speaker:requires a mineral called olivine. it is
Speaker:a magnesium silicate. It comes, from volcanic
Speaker:activity. It's one of the most abundant minerals in
Speaker:Earth's mantle as that
Speaker:dissolves in seawater. For example, there's a very famous beach in Hawaii
Speaker:called Papakalea where this is happening all the time.
Speaker:As this dissolves in seawater, it sequesters
Speaker:atmospheric CO2 into the form
Speaker:bicarbonate, where it's stable for 10,000 years. And oceanographers
Speaker:have been publishing on this for decades. So it's very well
Speaker:known stability. So, you know, the question is,
Speaker:can we use that process to instead
Speaker:sequester industrial emissions from hard to abate
Speaker:sectors, along things like ports and
Speaker:coastlines? so at Scape, we said, you know,
Speaker:why don't we containerize this reaction and you know,
Speaker:develop coastal facilities, where we can take
Speaker:in CO, two, industrial CO2 and
Speaker:sequester it, knowing that the
Speaker:sequestration is permanent. And I think one of the big
Speaker:value adds here is that for the maritime
Speaker:industry is if we can set up things like
Speaker:sequestration, hubs at ports, then we can
Speaker:remove a lot of the complex logistics,
Speaker:that CO2 capture and then
Speaker:sequestration, typically experience, for example
Speaker:pipelines and injection wells. And we could do it at a
Speaker:fraction of the cost because that reaction is an ambient
Speaker:temperature, ambient pressure reaction, so it doesn't pull
Speaker:a lot of energy. For example, at Scape, we
Speaker:really dug in on the CO2 sequestration
Speaker:part, which in carbon capture and storage is known as
Speaker:carbon storage. Our, approach
Speaker:was really to then partner, with other innovative
Speaker:companies that are figuring out the other complex logistics
Speaker:of capturing carbon for the, maritime sector,
Speaker:which comes with its own challenges. That's, why I'm excited to
Speaker:have, Michael and Chase here today. And, and I believe
Speaker:us three could be, very synergistic and
Speaker:really, as a value chain start, to tackle some of the
Speaker:biggest challenges and particularly in emissions compliance
Speaker:for these big sectors. So I'll leave it there.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: Thank you. And before we bring the word to
Speaker:Chase and Michael, I just wondered,
Speaker:can you bring us into understanding
Speaker:how. Chase, sorry, how
Speaker:the Scape solution works,
Speaker:for those of us that aren't
Speaker:deeply into the technology and
Speaker:understanding of carbon sequestration?
Speaker:>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth: Yeah. So like I said, what
Speaker:oceanographers have been studying for a long time is how the
Speaker:Earth regulates its climate and sequesters CO2.
Speaker:So typically you hear about photosynthesis, and
Speaker:that's one part of it. A much larger, carbon
Speaker:cycle is one where minerals like alkalizing
Speaker:minerals like limestone, olivine, they dissolve into
Speaker:seawater. That's a very gradual process. So, while
Speaker:it's regulated Earth's climate for a long
Speaker:time, humanity is now putting more CO2 into the atmosphere than
Speaker:that process can regulate. so what Scape said is can
Speaker:we accelerate that process and then use it
Speaker:to sequester industrial emissions? So what that looks like
Speaker:at a port, for example, is Scape
Speaker:developing a coastal facility where we move
Speaker:seawater through a flow through system. You know, we've
Speaker:developed other flow through systems, for example, like wastewater
Speaker:treatment plants, fermentation, so you know, flow through
Speaker:systems, such as that. And then for example,
Speaker:a ship like a bolt carrier can bring a
Speaker:nearby, olivine source to us. So
Speaker:let's say it's a regional olivine deposit that's
Speaker:one, thousand kilometres away. We can bring in olivine
Speaker:and then olivine is ground to a
Speaker:finer particle, ah, size. And then inside
Speaker:of our facilities we dissolve olivine into
Speaker:seawater. And what that creates is an environment
Speaker:where we can then take a CO2 source, whether it
Speaker:be, let's say from a ship or an industrial plant,
Speaker:at the port. And then we can immediately sequester that
Speaker:CO2 on site. So the CO2 gets converted
Speaker:into a compound called bicarbonate. It's in all
Speaker:water and it's a dissolved salt. So it's in the ocean,
Speaker:it's very stable. So that is
Speaker:the reaction that has stabilised our
Speaker:planet for a long time. At the same time,
Speaker:SCAPE actually recovers critical metals like nickel and
Speaker:chromium. And the nickel and chromium actually come
Speaker:from the olivine itself. Olivine has trace
Speaker:amounts of nickel and chromium in there. So when
Speaker:olivine dissolves in our facilities, we can sort them
Speaker:with commercially available absorbents, so we have
Speaker:critical metals and then we're sequestering carbon.
Speaker:And I think, what Michael and Chase and I are
Speaker:Aiming to do is for those larger
Speaker:maritime partners that we work with is to enable them to be
Speaker:compliant, under these emissions, compliance that
Speaker:you know, are in different places around the world. So,
Speaker:so really you know there's. If we can combine capture and then
Speaker:sequestration on site, which is what SCAPE is at these
Speaker:coastal facilities, I think we can provide a very
Speaker:compelling solution for for these industries.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: M. That is super interesting. And Chase, if
Speaker:you continue on the value chain,
Speaker:perspective, can you explain what is the
Speaker:role and value creation of carbon rich?
Speaker:>> Chase Dwyer: Yeah, so we sit kind of upstream from
Speaker:scape, on the capture side, for
Speaker:vessels, cruise industry and otherwise.
Speaker:and basically how our system works is it's like a
Speaker:mini chemical process where we bring the
Speaker:flue gas of the vessel into our
Speaker:modularized containers or skids,
Speaker:and out comes no emissions or you
Speaker:know, practically no emissions. Up to 90% removal of
Speaker:CO2, 99.5%
Speaker:removal of sulphur and then you know,
Speaker:same 99% removal of NOx, nitrous
Speaker:oxide. And out comes liquid CO2 on the back
Speaker:end which then can be sent to you know, a
Speaker:group like SCAPE to be permanently sequestered or
Speaker:can be sent to you know, a firm looking to go
Speaker:reutilize it in some industrial process for
Speaker:you know, electrofuels or cement or something along those
Speaker:lines. So we use what's basically like a
Speaker:catalytic converter for your car to remove the
Speaker:NOx. That's the big one obviously that Michael
Speaker:is also been working on for a long time, is trying to clean
Speaker:out pretty harmful pollutants in the air. And so that's already
Speaker:regulated from a maritime perspective. We then clean the
Speaker:sulphur as well, which is already regulated with a seawater
Speaker:based system. and then we get to the CO2 capture which is really
Speaker:our bread and butter. And our system is a complete end
Speaker:to end system on the vessel. So we do CO2
Speaker:capture regeneration of the solvent that we use to capture
Speaker:the CO2 so that you're constantly using the same solvent.
Speaker:You're not loading new solvent every time you come on
Speaker:a vessel, which gets very expensive. And then at the
Speaker:end we compress the CO2 and we liquefy it into a
Speaker:liquid form, so that it can be sent and used
Speaker:industrially. The key part of our technology is that we
Speaker:use centrifuges to do a good amount of those
Speaker:processes which significantly reduces the overall size of
Speaker:the equipment and the carbon capture process. And A lot of the other
Speaker:pieces by over 75%. So
Speaker:that's kind of our core bread and butter. We're operating globally
Speaker:so we have kind of partners in Asia,
Speaker:few in the US and then we have the first plant
Speaker:that we're putting online at Tankership this year.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: That is very exciting. And
Speaker:Michael, can you explain to us how
Speaker:how stacks plug into this value
Speaker:chain? Because of course the retrofit
Speaker:and changes to existing ships, that
Speaker:is quite complex.
Speaker:>> Michael Walker: We offer a little bit of a different solution than Chase
Speaker:and Nathan, but a complimentary one. And really the direction
Speaker:we're going right now, SACS primarily
Speaker:targets PM and nocs and that's per
Speaker:the California Air Resource Board carbs app,
Speaker:Earth regulations. So we address that need
Speaker:for the thousands of ships that come into
Speaker:the California port births that are required
Speaker:to have their emissions treated while they're in
Speaker:port. And that includes crews and
Speaker:containers, auto carriers and
Speaker:tankers as well. So we currently have eight
Speaker:units in operation. We're scaling up to 30.
Speaker:our technology reaches up to the stack actually from
Speaker:a barge based solution and captures the emissions
Speaker:from the actual exhaust stack. And so we're
Speaker:able to take that exhaust stream, run it through
Speaker:our processing system, reduce PM,
Speaker:by 99%, Knox by greater than
Speaker:95% and ultimately qualifying
Speaker:those visits. Underneath that California Air
Speaker:Resource Board regulation, the
Speaker:logical next step for us is to partner
Speaker:with Chase and Nathan and entities that
Speaker:are now capturing carbon on the back end of that.
Speaker:So it's a natural transition for us. California
Speaker:hasn't made the move yet to regulate carbon
Speaker:but we anticipate that to be in the
Speaker:forefront or in the future rather. And so
Speaker:the unique aspect that we have where
Speaker:Chase and Nathan are able to actually do it on board.
Speaker:So there's this nice great evolution as we retrofit and
Speaker:we add new builds into a carbon capture
Speaker:component. We kind of backfill that area that
Speaker:people aren't doing as of yet or when you don't have
Speaker:unregulated or rather unconverted
Speaker:vessels, you're able to put a carbon capture system
Speaker:on a system like a stacks and we're able to
Speaker:turn your, your port visit to a zero emission
Speaker:visit. So we're super excited about it. Currently I think
Speaker:we've treated somewhere around 90 tonnes of emissions in the
Speaker:state of California. the regulation just moved up
Speaker:in 2025 to include auto carriers and tankers and
Speaker:so it's a big leap forward. We're also very
Speaker:excited about the opportunity that we have in the UK and
Speaker:EU with regard to carbon capture
Speaker:in those venues as well as we look as
Speaker:an alternative to shore power which has its limitations from
Speaker:a capex standpoint, from a deployment standpoint. And
Speaker:then also certainly there's the vast majority of ships
Speaker:do not have any kind of shore power
Speaker:ability. So with a stack
Speaker:system with a partner with Chase or Nathan, we're able
Speaker:to take and address those waste streams while they're at
Speaker:port and give them a zero emission footprint.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: That is extremely interesting. And that's also
Speaker:what what Nate will be be covering at the
Speaker:sea trade 40th anniversary in April
Speaker:in Miami. And I'm wondering, I
Speaker:mean of course we, we know that in the maritime industry
Speaker:you make investments for many many
Speaker:years ahead and it will be a long time until we
Speaker:have new builds out at the seven
Speaker:seas that are fully emission free. So
Speaker:of course the, the solutions that we can
Speaker:plug into existing vessels to decarbonize
Speaker:them while we are working to get
Speaker:completely emission free solutions in place will
Speaker:be crucial when we look
Speaker:at getting towards 2030.
Speaker:Can you share with us a bit around your
Speaker:progress? When will we be able to
Speaker:have this combination of solutions on
Speaker:board a vessel and where are
Speaker:key opportunities for cruise and
Speaker:various regional ports that you see
Speaker:interesting from each of your
Speaker:perspectives and where are
Speaker:essential bottlenecks that needs to be tackled
Speaker:to bring these solutions out on m the
Speaker:large cruise vessels. And I'll start with you Nate.
Speaker:>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth: Yeah so right now scape, the company was spun
Speaker:out of another company called Vesta, where I
Speaker:was the former head of science. So that Vesta was
Speaker:started in 2019. And what Vesta
Speaker:focused on was actually spreading the mineral olivine
Speaker:in the coastal ocean to sequester atmospheric
Speaker:CO2. So what I did is I took
Speaker:that process and I bottled it and put it
Speaker:at port. at Vesta we raised 25
Speaker:million across grants and equity to really de risk the
Speaker:science and the technology of olivine. When we were
Speaker:starting there was no real precedent yet
Speaker:for that type of sequestration. So
Speaker:in 2024 I spun scape out and we
Speaker:raised first quick round of funding.
Speaker:And right now we're raising basically a late
Speaker:seed type of round. And what we will
Speaker:plan to do is to really develop our
Speaker:shipping containerized unit to do
Speaker:very rapid modular testing where we can go
Speaker:to coastal industrial sites, place it on site
Speaker:that's minimally invasive and, and do that rapid
Speaker:testing and then going towards
Speaker:2028 to 2030 our
Speaker:goal is to really have ah, closer to
Speaker:a 50 to 100,000 tonne CO2 per
Speaker:year system that's running you know at ports
Speaker:and coastlines. And so really
Speaker:our go to market and our really kind of
Speaker:best place to be positioned our ports and
Speaker:really shore side to then be able
Speaker:to flexibly intake CO2, let's say
Speaker:from a ship that has coming up, that is
Speaker:the carbon capture or, or shop ship stocked at
Speaker:port, that needs sequestration services. So we are really
Speaker:aiming to be CO2 storage as a service which kind of is
Speaker:a replacement for example than having the CO2
Speaker:sent to, to an offshore injection platform.
Speaker:So really by 2030 we aim to be commercial at the
Speaker:100,000 tonne scale and then ultimately
Speaker:have a vision for the million tonnes of CO2
Speaker:per year facility which is still quite
Speaker:smaller than for example like a wastewater treatment facility.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: Thank you. And Chase, about you, you mentioned that you
Speaker:are now getting your solution on board with a tanker
Speaker:vessel but how about the cruise
Speaker:market and what's your pathway? What's
Speaker:needed?
Speaker:>> Chase Dwyer: Yeah so as I said we're deploying our first system right now
Speaker:on a vessel. We've been working on land for a little
Speaker:while now and kind of innovating on the technology
Speaker:I guess. And once the first deployment is done,
Speaker:that deployment is, think of it, it captures
Speaker:a bit less than 5% of the flue gas of the vessel. So
Speaker:it's kind of a slipstream of it really. It's to get full
Speaker:end to end validation of the technology
Speaker:because we are using some newer things from a maritime
Speaker:perspective, industrial technology that's been deployed at
Speaker:scale for a long time. But bringing things into the maritime
Speaker:industry is always a process of trying to make sure everybody's
Speaker:comfortable with it. Right. And kind of understands all the elements.
Speaker:So once that's done we're then moving towards you
Speaker:know, commercial deployment. There's no fundamental R
Speaker:and D issues that need to be solved in order to
Speaker:scale from where we are today to you
Speaker:know, up to 70, 80, 90% capacity on
Speaker:these vessels, whether it's a cruise ship or it's a
Speaker:tanker or container line. So we're working with a
Speaker:handful of different players across the tanker business,
Speaker:container ships, talking with a few people in the cruise
Speaker:space about what these deployments are going to look like
Speaker:and targeting to begin the construction
Speaker:of the first larger scale unit in
Speaker:2026. So it'll be going from
Speaker:pilot scale to commercial scale, in the next
Speaker:24 months. Think of it. Essentially, what's really
Speaker:interesting about the synergy here is that we
Speaker:do most of our work when the vessels at sea
Speaker:and when it's approaching port, but when the
Speaker:vessel actually gets support, it becomes more and more challenging
Speaker:versus, like ours to be very effective
Speaker:in terms of. In the actual port operations, in
Speaker:terms of how it operates based on really the energy balances of the
Speaker:vessel. because the vessel is not emitting as much
Speaker:CO2 as it is out in port. But our system,
Speaker:right. Still has basic functionality requirements. And so
Speaker:where I think Michael's solution is really interesting. Right, is it's kind
Speaker:of that, like, handover almost, so that we get inside the port and
Speaker:they take over the operations. And that why carbon
Speaker:capture and then doing all the other things that we are doing is interesting.
Speaker:And then obviously something needs to be done with that CO2.
Speaker:So we're very interested in kind of the parallels there of
Speaker:how that all connects. But we're excited about the fact
Speaker:that we're ready to move and scale
Speaker:very soon.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: And Michael, I mean, you're already well on the
Speaker:ground. Your company was
Speaker:named, Fast Company, Next Big Things in
Speaker:tech last year. Can you describe your
Speaker:progress and ability to really now support the
Speaker:cruise industry together with Chase and
Speaker:Mate?
Speaker:>> Michael Walker: Yeah, we couldn't be at a more exciting time for stacks. We just
Speaker:closed last week the second half of $120
Speaker:million financing. That really puts us on
Speaker:a, pathway to our goal of
Speaker:hitting 30 units, within the state of
Speaker:California, addressing those, those at birth needs that
Speaker:I discussed, previously. But the thing that I
Speaker:love about hearing about what Chase and Nate are talking about is, you know, they
Speaker:have the heavy lift here that, you know, I keep looking from the
Speaker:outside, we love our story because what we do is we're
Speaker:able to. We're really good at connecting to vessels,
Speaker:and there's a lot of value to that. we give operational
Speaker:excellence, safety, all those things that really matter in the
Speaker:maritime space. We also give a really clean
Speaker:waste stream that comes out on the back of our,
Speaker:systems. that is a good source
Speaker:for whether it's Chase or Nate or what have you.
Speaker:And it allows us to partner with best of breed. And some
Speaker:of the big challenges these guys are facing, are around
Speaker:sequestration and what do we do with storage
Speaker:and what have you. So we're really excited
Speaker:about partnering with Them we see that as really the
Speaker:natural next step for the business as we expand
Speaker:into the UK and into the EU.
Speaker:We have plans in 2025 that are,
Speaker:we're working through right now for expansion into
Speaker:the UK market that would have a component of
Speaker:carbon capture along with that. we see that as
Speaker:integral, particularly in the EU
Speaker:where zero carbon is the driver versus air
Speaker:quality. in the UK air quality is a little bit more
Speaker:of a driver and so they see it as equal
Speaker:mix, back and forth. But the one exciting thing
Speaker:is within the next 45 days we will actually
Speaker:do the first carbon capture test and
Speaker:storage on a vessel in the port of La Long
Speaker:beach. And we'll demonstrate that, we'll come back
Speaker:with some data and we'll be able to show what that
Speaker:looks like and we'll have the first zero emission
Speaker:port visit in the history of port visit. So we're, we're
Speaker:super excited about that. but again you know the heavy lift that
Speaker:Nate and Chase are doing is, is not lost on us.
Speaker:We're super appreciative of it. There's a lot of
Speaker:business models and challenges associated with it and I'm thankful
Speaker:they're working so hard and diligently on it.
Speaker:And we look to partner with folks like
Speaker:them in order to provide zero emission across the
Speaker:globe. And I think that it's a nice synergy between the two
Speaker:of us. Whether it's you know, we have our
Speaker:founding member or of
Speaker:the company is a pioneer in the mission
Speaker:capture and control space, Bob Sharp. And
Speaker:he's working on right now ways in which we can
Speaker:particularly solve the cruise line which is a different
Speaker:animal because the exhaust streams at port are
Speaker:significantly higher than those of the other vessel
Speaker:types. But we're we're pursuing that as well.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: That is interesting. And I think that in a world
Speaker:with some pretty huge
Speaker:corporations, ah, then it's very often
Speaker:extremely complex for individual
Speaker:startups to get in the door with these large
Speaker:stakeholders. And on the other side it's Even
Speaker:when the willingness and eagerness and interest is
Speaker:there from the corporate guys, it can of course be quite
Speaker:complex to work with a bunch
Speaker:of individual startups not really
Speaker:connected. Which is why I wanted to bring you guys on board
Speaker:because I do believe that when we look at power
Speaker:coupling, the dynamics between
Speaker:tapping into the best synergies and strengths of
Speaker:the large corporates and the small new startups,
Speaker:there is one area that is really very often
Speaker:overlooked which is about teaming
Speaker:up and bundling a combination
Speaker:of innovators and solutions so
Speaker:that you have a more kind of
Speaker:complete value chain for the
Speaker:large stakeholders to work with which
Speaker:really also can de risk and reduce the
Speaker:complexity in the decision making process
Speaker:and actually handling this live
Speaker:on the ground. Can you talk to me a little bit
Speaker:about how you see the best
Speaker:potentials and you know, the cool
Speaker:opportunities in your multi
Speaker:stakeholder dynamics moving ahead, when you
Speaker:try to see it from the perspective
Speaker:of a director in a large cruise.
Speaker:>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth: Company, coming from a background of science, you
Speaker:know, into the world of business. You know, I'm
Speaker:of course very excited by the fact that the physical
Speaker:mechanism I'm working with, the Earth is and the
Speaker:earth figured out a long time ago. but the benefit
Speaker:I would say with talking with you, Birgit and Michael,
Speaker:and Chase is I really just start getting down to
Speaker:it. What are the deep challenges actually being
Speaker:experienced by the larger industries,
Speaker:at ports and just generally in the
Speaker:maritime industry. And that's really where the
Speaker:refining of the product starts taking place.
Speaker:Chase and Michael and I are just talking about what are
Speaker:the big challenges, financial challenges, logistical
Speaker:challenges that we're actually there to solve.
Speaker:And that's I think really where the excitement
Speaker:comes from. These solutions. It's like yes of
Speaker:course, emissions capture and clean air and
Speaker:carbon is important but really these
Speaker:operators have very strict schedules. it's very
Speaker:challenging to move around, challenging to get
Speaker:things from A to B off site. And
Speaker:that's when all of us kind of really start to think about okay, those
Speaker:are actually the challenges that we're solving and how do
Speaker:we, they really need to move forward in this space, but
Speaker:they also really need to keep their businesses going. And
Speaker:so some of the most more innovative and most
Speaker:innovative collaborators and operators that I see
Speaker:are those really focusing on those challenges. And I
Speaker:think that's kind of the benefit what you're bringing
Speaker:here for us is we figured out some technically
Speaker:challenging things but really we're in the process of figuring
Speaker:out some very business and logistical
Speaker:challenges to really get our product in, into market and
Speaker:to really step into a very large, you know, and
Speaker:potentially sometimes slower moving industry for us. But that's
Speaker:why I think collaboration is key because I'll learn about
Speaker:challenges that ah, Chase and Michael are looking at that
Speaker:really help me, you know, and then you know, vice
Speaker:versa. You know, we all talk to different operators and
Speaker:their challenges along the chain so that's
Speaker:what I think is really exciting for us to just hone in on those
Speaker:challenges and chase when it's.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: seen from your perspective, what is the
Speaker:key values from your end?
Speaker:>> Chase Dwyer: I think the interesting thing is that we kind of all
Speaker:operate in the climate space generally
Speaker:that's taken off especially in the past five years. And I
Speaker:think one thing that's typical in climate is that people are solving
Speaker:this kind of existential issue but without a real
Speaker:customer almost in a way, in a lot of cases with director
Speaker:capture or other spaces with
Speaker:maritime and everything that we're involved in here,
Speaker:there's a very specific customer base,
Speaker:right, that has an existing business model that we're trying to figure
Speaker:out, okay, how do we get rid of the emissions in this business model? And
Speaker:so half of the question is how do we get rid of the emissions
Speaker:in the business model? But the other half is how do we do this in a
Speaker:way that makes sense, as Nathan said, so that we don't disrupt
Speaker:vessel schedules or in the cruise industry,
Speaker:the schedules of the people that are trying to enjoy their time on those
Speaker:cruises, which is kind of the core sauce
Speaker:and focus of the business, not necessarily
Speaker:reducing the effects of climate. And so I
Speaker:think the big thing from our perspective is understanding how do
Speaker:we look at it very holistically, right. Of this needs to be an end to
Speaker:end solution and what are the goals and so, you know,
Speaker:where we can align with scape is that the goals at
Speaker:the end of the day are to reduce CO2 emissions as much as
Speaker:possible and to do that with carbon
Speaker:capture. You really need to look at how do we
Speaker:get the CO2 to a permanent place where it can be
Speaker:stored long term so that you can actually qualify to
Speaker:say we captured CO2, we got rid of it, it
Speaker:has a climate impact. So there's a natural synergy
Speaker:there. And our ability to kind of partner and say, hey, we're going to have
Speaker:this kind of complete end to end solution to capture the
Speaker:CO2 on the vessel and the rest of the missions and then do
Speaker:something with it after. And I think the same thing when it comes to
Speaker:stacks, right, is that complementary
Speaker:solution where we can do a lot of work at
Speaker:sea, but Michael is much better at doing it at the port.
Speaker:And you really need both, right, because one almost can't
Speaker:function without the other in a way to have that full holistic
Speaker:solution. And then I think the back end of it, right, is that
Speaker:Michael's also doing, looking at carbon capture and ship. So obviously there's a
Speaker:natural synergy there as we have a technology we've been working
Speaker:on. So I think that I was saying
Speaker:this might have been almost a year ago to
Speaker:one of the strategy managers at one of the large
Speaker:industrial maritime OEMs. I said, if you're guys going to go
Speaker:try to build a carbon capture business, I would go buy
Speaker:a carbon capture developer, I would buy Port
Speaker:CO2 and NOx developer, and then I would go buy
Speaker:somebody who's looking at the logistics or the back end of the
Speaker:solution. And that's kind of who you have here on this
Speaker:podcast. So it's really the full end to
Speaker:end.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: That's such an important perspective, I think,
Speaker:because, I mean, there are a lot of, A lot of actors
Speaker:out there looking at, onboard carbon,
Speaker:capture, these days. But then one of the
Speaker:main issues, just as we can see
Speaker:with plastic and waste or with
Speaker:renewable energy, is that if you don't have a
Speaker:value chain to take it up and
Speaker:handle it, then it doesn't really matter if you
Speaker:manage to capture it. So, Michael, seen
Speaker:from your perspective, I mean, you can partner with a lot of different
Speaker:stakeholders here. How do you consider,
Speaker:like, the key wins for a cruise line
Speaker:that is looking at this as a way of,
Speaker:removing and reducing their own footprints?
Speaker:>> Michael Walker: We operate a little bit of a benefit and, less of a challenge
Speaker:than what Nate and Chase are doing because we have that
Speaker:carb regulation, which has distinct fine
Speaker:structures in that. And so there has to be compliance.
Speaker:And so I come from the standpoint
Speaker:almost like, man, I would love to see some kind of carbon tax
Speaker:or something that would drive the value of
Speaker:carbon in a way that the response that we
Speaker:get, which is they have to use this
Speaker:technology and so there has to be adoption of
Speaker:it. And that's why I'm so interested in having these
Speaker:conversations with Nate, Chase and others
Speaker:around what their model looks like and
Speaker:how we can partner together and what those synergies
Speaker:are. I don't want to throw the industry under the
Speaker:bus, though. on the commercial side, you have companies like
Speaker:NY NYK who are saying, hey, we're going to go ahead
Speaker:and do this no matter what. We have companies
Speaker:like Amports who saying, hey, we operate terminals
Speaker:on the east coast and we want this technology because our
Speaker:customers are demanding it and Shell and
Speaker:Toyota. So I think the worms turned a
Speaker:lot, with regard to the industry saying, okay, it might
Speaker:not be a regulation, it might not be regulated,
Speaker:but we, it hits our mandates, internal
Speaker:mandates, to go ahead and do this ourselves. And
Speaker:that's super encouraging. Right. And we're seeing
Speaker:that actually some of the folks are looking at taking us over to the UK
Speaker:is really driven by the commercial side of it. So when
Speaker:you look at a cruise, I think the footprint
Speaker:people are trying to get to is they want to, I'm sure, you know,
Speaker:address this need. there's a way for it
Speaker:to, from a business standpoint, I'm sure to pass
Speaker:those costs through and along. But
Speaker:ultimately, you know, how do you solve this
Speaker:problem of capturing carbon in the most
Speaker:efficient way while at birth, without,
Speaker:you know, screwing up operations or
Speaker:lessening the experience? I think there's some
Speaker:challenges to it, but I think also that it's, it's all
Speaker:workable. and I think ultimately it's
Speaker:something that if we close our eyes and open them up in five
Speaker:years, it'll be a solution that's going to be there on the table because I
Speaker:think it's inevitable that we're heading in this direction. And
Speaker:now it's just a function of what's the best path
Speaker:to get there.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: For the cruise folks out there listening in
Speaker:and watching here today, how can
Speaker:ports and cruise lines team up with you?
Speaker:And where do you see the
Speaker:ideal partners
Speaker:and regions? markets where
Speaker:you think you should have capabilities
Speaker:to move in early and really create
Speaker:these amazing power couple, structures
Speaker:ahead to help the cruise industry on this
Speaker:important area.
Speaker:>> Dr. Nathan Wolworth: So for us, kind of, I think going off
Speaker:of what Michael said, we are CO2
Speaker:sequestration, so our best foot
Speaker:forward as a go to market is in carbon compliance
Speaker:markets. I would say federally in the United
Speaker:States, I'm not sure if we'll have one. but
Speaker:state by state, there will be compliance markets. And
Speaker:I'd say California is one of the first movers
Speaker:going there. So there's actually a lot of energy, for
Speaker:example, from maritime industries
Speaker:knowing that a compliance market, in California
Speaker:is developing and that's really important for us. The
Speaker:market for us and the product is big,
Speaker:industrials feeling, really attacks coming in on their
Speaker:balance sheet that they need to solve and the tax needs
Speaker:to be significant enough. So the best
Speaker:example and the most mature compliance markets of course
Speaker:are in the eu where the carbon price is very
Speaker:high. And so if you have very large
Speaker:facilities emitting more in the hundreds
Speaker:of thousands of tonnes of CO2 or in the maritime
Speaker:industry and you have a price of carbon that's
Speaker:$100 a tonne or increasing, as
Speaker:Bloomberg is projecting in the next few
Speaker:years, then you're really getting into the tens of
Speaker:hundreds of millions of dollars of taxes, for your carbon
Speaker:footprint. so really we know that,
Speaker:and that obviously is kind of on full display.
Speaker:So, we have received a lot of
Speaker:interest, because we are emissions reduction, to
Speaker:enable compliance from a CO2
Speaker:perspective, in Europe, it also has
Speaker:a lot of olivine, has a lot of seawater, and a lot of,
Speaker:coastal industrial activities. So that's
Speaker:really kind of a first, step for us. And really
Speaker:as an example, the Port of Rotterdam, is
Speaker:developing a lot of carbon, capture and storage
Speaker:infrastructure. So it's really a port oriented in
Speaker:that direction already. And that's really helpful
Speaker:from a discussion standpoint. I think Chase,
Speaker:Michael and I, when we need to go into very large industries,
Speaker:we need to see who's oriented in that way already.
Speaker:So it's very different if you're trying to convince someone to do
Speaker:this versus those that are already looking for a solution. So
Speaker:as a startup and smaller companies, it's very important.
Speaker:And then we're excited to create models for other
Speaker:industries to look at to see that it is working.
Speaker:And so for us, I would say Europe, places like
Speaker:California, Japan, Korea and Singapore are starting
Speaker:their compliance market. So that's from our perspective,
Speaker:it's really a CO2 compliance, perspective for us.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: Thank you, Nate. Anything you guys want to add,
Speaker:Chase and Michael?
Speaker:>> Chase Dwyer: Yeah, I mean, I think from a broader perspective when you
Speaker:look at the regulatory. Michael's right. That the industry has been very slow
Speaker:to move to adopt anything when it comes to, around
Speaker:CO2. But you do have the CII
Speaker:regulation in place today, which does affect some vessels depending
Speaker:on the routes that they're operating. The cruise
Speaker:industry operates very short, distance
Speaker:routes relative to a lot of other vessels. So sometimes you do see
Speaker:an impact there if you have older vessels. So that might be a pain
Speaker:point for operators. and then you do have
Speaker:a slow but developing regulatory market
Speaker:around adopting something that's more
Speaker:related to putting a price and a
Speaker:levy on CO2 with it, at the IMO
Speaker:level when that exactly happens, we'll see. but I
Speaker:think that as Michael said, there's a pretty clear
Speaker:path to this needed to happen and kind of
Speaker:being buy in from the industry. There's
Speaker:specifically to cruise line. I think what's interesting from our perspective is
Speaker:that we've built a solution to be very modular so
Speaker:that it doesn't require a super invasive
Speaker:retrofit. You don't need to take a 30 metre
Speaker:column and dig it into the funnel of a
Speaker:vessel. We have these modules basically that can be
Speaker:installed really anywhere adjacent or in
Speaker:the engine room on a new build. And so we
Speaker:provide a solution that can be more plug and
Speaker:play for the cruise industry. And I think then
Speaker:in addition what we're looking to do is
Speaker:provide this end to end solution for ship owners, right, to
Speaker:decarbonize. So it's not just the carbon capture technology on board,
Speaker:it's the management of all the logistics that come after
Speaker:it. And Nathan's solution is one part of those
Speaker:logistics. Right. And they're trying to minimise that. You don't
Speaker:need to do maybe a bunch of, you know, other trans
Speaker:shipment or trucking or something like that.
Speaker:but also looking at the monetization and bringing the scheme back
Speaker:together, looking at financing and what's the right way to finance
Speaker:these kind of package module units and really wrapping
Speaker:it all up into kind of carbon capture as a service
Speaker:and then looking at what you're doing on the port side, which is
Speaker:what Michael's working on. So I think from our perspective it's
Speaker:a cruise line that says, you know, there's this
Speaker:explicit need for us to go in and reduce CO2 in
Speaker:these solutions. You know, they can't find a good
Speaker:alternative that can really get them to high levels of,
Speaker:of CO2 reduction. And we provide a
Speaker:relatively plug and play way to do that. that's going to be commercially
Speaker:available here very soon.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: Thank you Chase. Those are great points.
Speaker:We will land in very soon
Speaker:and round up this episode. But Michael, do you have
Speaker:additional points that haven't been covered by Nathan or Chase or
Speaker:that are different seen from your perspective on
Speaker:the early movies market?
Speaker:>> Michael Walker: Yeah, I'm wildly encouraged. I think three years ago when we started
Speaker:raising money, the quality of venture capital that we were
Speaker:talking to that was focused on the carbon capture space
Speaker:was tier one and they were the best.
Speaker:And I was, I remember, you know, thinking to myself,
Speaker:okay, this is exactly what it needs to get to where,
Speaker:you know, we're going to have a successful market because you have
Speaker:high quality venture capital putting money into
Speaker:organisations and supporting them. So
Speaker:places like Scape and Carbon Ridge, that's where all
Speaker:this comes from. It starts bubbling up from having great
Speaker:focused venture capital as well. And then I
Speaker:think ultimately when we're able
Speaker:to showcase the first carbon capture
Speaker:at birth, I think then that shows to regulators, hey look,
Speaker:this is real. When Chase and NATO are able to
Speaker:demonstrate their product at scale and
Speaker:the application working. Now, all of a sudden it
Speaker:puts just this continual pressure on everybody.
Speaker:And now regulators can point to it and they can
Speaker:say, here's a technology that we can get right
Speaker:regulation to, because Scape or Carbon
Speaker:Ridge can support that. And there's a technology
Speaker:there. So, again, I'm wildly encouraged. I
Speaker:think that there's great resources behind, this path. And I
Speaker:think that we're getting to a critical, mass point
Speaker:where we can start to demonstrate
Speaker:carbon capture at scale. And once we do that, then the
Speaker:economics will come together, I believe.
Speaker:>> Birgit Liodden: Thank you so much. I think that enables us to
Speaker:round off on a very positive note. And,
Speaker:for the curious executives out there, eager to
Speaker:learn more, make sure we catch up at
Speaker:Seatrade trade at the 40th anniversary in
Speaker:Miami. Nate will be there and we are a
Speaker:bunch of amazing innovators from
Speaker:around the world eager to land in with
Speaker:Cruise. So thank you all of you
Speaker:guys, and I'm really looking forward to following
Speaker:your journeys ahead. Thank you.
Speaker:For ctrade global 40th anniversary in
Speaker:2025, we will also prepare the very first
Speaker:edition of Tools Cruise Innovators, a
Speaker:global overview of startups and innovators with
Speaker:enabling solutions for cruise. Welcome
Speaker:on board our voyage into the future and join
Speaker:the wave. Sign up today.
Speaker:Community.toolspawn.com.
