Tech Talks | Iain Milnes, Power Knot Ocean

Holly Payne: 00:00:03

The LFC bio digesters on ships ensure that organic waste can be safely disposed of with no possibility of plastics entering the ocean, with hundreds of machines deployed across cruise

Holly Payne: 00:00:15

ships, cargo ships, FSR use tankers and mega yachts. Power Knot Ocean brings seven years of experience to solving problems of organic waste on vessels while meeting MARPOL regulations.

Ian Richardson: 00:00:33

Hi, I'm Ian Richardson. Welcome to the tech talks podcast from the ice way and seatrade cruise. Each episode looks at technology and innovation in the cruise industry, as I host q&a

Ian Richardson: 00:00:44

sessions with tech leaders and innovators who are all working diligently to create solutions that will benefit crews in a variety of different ways. As co-founder and CEO of The ICEWay ecosystem of

Ian Richardson: 00:00:55

companies, I myself are very excited to be involved in new technology projects on a regular basis. Many of these are specifically aimed at helping improve the cruise industry. There's a lot of great

Ian Richardson: 00:01:07

work and effort going into new and cutting edge technology solutions in the cruise industry as a whole. The objectives are far reaching, from enhancing the onboard experience for guests and crew to

Ian Richardson: 00:01:18

increasing the overall efficiencies both at sea and in port of destination. A lot of us are working hard to reduce wastage and to implement more sustainable practices, processes and features. The Tech

Ian Richardson: 00:01:30

Talks podcast will put a spotlight on these solutions, and will include never before seen information and facts about them, whilst also providing an exclusive platform to some of the creative minds

Ian Richardson: 00:01:41

who are behind them. On this seatrade cruise talks podcast, we have a very interesting and really relevant topic. As we're discussing the technology behind environmental sustainability and crews.

Ian Richardson: 00:01:57

We're going to be focusing in particular on bio digestion machines onboard ships, and how they're used to reduce the environmental impact of food waste. So I'd like to introduce our guests in Mills,

Ian Richardson: 00:02:09

who's the founder of Power Knot LLC, a company based in Fremont, California, that specializes in providing on site Food Waste Solutions for many industries, including cruise ships. So welcome in, I'm

Ian Richardson: 00:02:21

really glad to have you with us. Good day to you. So I think that was a reasonable introduction into Power Knot LLC. But I want to start off with an understanding a bit about you and your career

Ian Richardson: 00:02:32

history. And how you got into the food waste industry. And what led to the inception of Power Knot?

Iain Milnes: 00:02:39

Well, this is my sixth company that I've started, right. I started power not not with the intention of doing waste food machines, but doing another product. And as I was still trying to

Iain Milnes: 00:02:52

sell that other product to a major hotel, here in Silicon Valley, he didn't want to buy it. And I said, Well, what other problems do you have. And he took me around back and showed me his rubbish skip

Iain Milnes: 00:03:04

full of rotting food, and flies around it and the smell and said, If you could find a solution to this problem, then I'll buy that from you. And so about nine months later, we delivered the first LFC

Iain Milnes: 00:03:16

Biodigester. He was one of our first customers, we just developed and modified the product and expanded the product to suit customer's needs as we've gone on. So we're now shipping our seventh

Iain Milnes: 00:03:30

generation machine. We sold our first machine onto a ship around about 2016 and then got big time into the cruise ship business in 2019. And have expanded significantly since then. So that last year

Iain Milnes: 00:03:51

2022 The majority of ourselves, we're on to cruise ships, or one Marine in particular because we also sell to cargo ships FSI us and mega yachts,

Ian Richardson: 00:04:05

right? So it all started from just a sort of a sales pitch that went wrong, really. So what what were you trying to sell him?

Iain Milnes: 00:04:11

Well, I started the company to sell a product that improves the efficiency of air conditioning rights, okay, and power not still sells that product. And it's a good product and it works.

Iain Milnes: 00:04:25

But the problem was that you would go to tell a customer that the snake oil will improve the efficiency of their air conditioning systems. And they would say, Okay, how do I know that it's not going

Iain Milnes: 00:04:36

to blow up and destroy my air conditioning system? And secondly, how do I know that I'm going to get the efficiency gains that you claim everybody else has got? And so it was a tough sell. And that

Iain Milnes: 00:04:47

was the case in this major hotel in Silicon Valley.

Ian Richardson: 00:04:52

There was the nobody else sort of creating these by digestion machines at the time because he obviously took around the back and said Can you can you solve this problem, which was a

Ian Richardson: 00:05:02

big pile of food waste, right? And what was it was, it was this other things on the market at that time,

Iain Milnes: 00:05:08

we were one of the first to offer them into North America, the basic fundamental technology was developed in Korea and Japan, both of which are significantly short on space for landfill.

Iain Milnes: 00:05:23

So there was a need to be able to get rid of excess organic well,

Ian Richardson: 00:05:29

right, well, let's talk about the actual food waste on ships. So I'm keen to know exactly sort of, I'm sure you've got the figures, how much food goes to waste on ships

Iain Milnes: 00:05:39

for a typical cruise ship, you're talking about one kilogram, per passenger per day. So that excludes crew. So if you take a cruise ship with 2500, people, for example, it may have

Iain Milnes: 00:05:56

anywhere from 800 to 2000. Crew there, but just consider the passengers, that cruise ship with 2500, people on board would have about 2500 kilograms, total waste organic waste per day,

Ian Richardson: 00:06:11

it's a huge amount. And what's the sort of traditional process of getting rid of the food waste?

Iain Milnes: 00:06:18

On most cruise ships, what used to happen is it would go into a pole pub, which is basically a grinder, which would grind it up. And then one of two things would happen, it would either

Iain Milnes: 00:06:30

get discharged purely as it was, or it would go into the gray water holding tank, and then it will get discharged, it will get discharged obviously when the more than 12 nautical miles out, and when

Iain Milnes: 00:06:42

there are moving at three knots per hour, but we have some cargo ships, some tanker ships, which have told us that they just simply throw the food overboard, the Marpole regulations are not entirely

Iain Milnes: 00:06:57

clear on on it. But anything larger than 25 millimeters should never be discharged at sea. So the pump would grind it up into smaller chunks, and then it would be discharged at sea.

Ian Richardson: 00:07:09

So that obviously has an environmental impact what what sort of issues does that cause when they just throw the food over the side effectively?

Iain Milnes: 00:07:17

Well, whether they're throwing it over the side, or whether it's going into the gray water tank, then going into the ocean is pretty much the same thing that there are there are two

Iain Milnes: 00:07:26

problems with it. Firstly, when any organic material decomposes in the absence of oxygen, whether it's buried on a landfill on land, or thrown into the ocean, it will decompose anaerobically into

Iain Milnes: 00:07:41

methane, which is a gas 87 times worse for the atmosphere than carbon dioxide. But particularly when it's thrown into the ocean, then the sea animals, the fish and all the rest are going to eat this.

Iain Milnes: 00:07:56

That's very bad for them. It's that's not their diet, but they look at it and see it as food. And it's really bad for them. But the real problem and the reason why we got involved in the first place

Iain Milnes: 00:08:10

is that the pulper would grind up pieces of plastic, right, such as plastic straws, plastic cups that might hold catch up or whatever. And those would be discharged into the ocean. And now you've now

Iain Milnes: 00:08:25

you've got an even bigger problem that you're discharging plastics into the ocean, and the plastics are being eaten by the sea animals.

Ian Richardson: 00:08:33

Right. Okay. And then there's a lot of plastic that goes into it sort of traditional pulper presumably, they're not fishing that out or anything.

Iain Milnes: 00:08:41

Well, you know, go back a decade, I think people weren't really paying much attention to it. But then about five years ago, a major cruise line in the US was fined large amounts of

Iain Milnes: 00:08:56

dollars for discharging plastics into the ocean. And that's where we got involved with that cruise line to help them find an alternative to the pulpits. And that cruise line is now one of our largest

Iain Milnes: 00:09:10

customers with hundreds of our LFC biodigesters on their chips to prevent the plastics from ever getting out into the waste stream.

Ian Richardson: 00:09:20

Okay, so well let's talk a little bit about the machines themselves and how they stop plastics. And we're gonna what are the other benefits, but how do they actually work these

Ian Richardson: 00:09:31

biodigesters

Iain Milnes: 00:09:32

biodigester is like a big stainless steel stomach, right? And it is constantly eating the waste food. It uses micro organisms to do that digestion. These are naturally occurring micro

Iain Milnes: 00:09:46

organisms so they're safe to handle and they are inside the drum of the machine. So the user the operator would simply throw the waste food into the machine, close the lid, walk away and come back and

Iain Milnes: 00:09:59

put more And later on, the machine is constantly digesting, and constantly turning that waste into water, which can then be safely discharged.

Ian Richardson: 00:10:10

Right. And water really is the own only byproduct. Yes,

Iain Milnes: 00:10:14

water is the only byproduct that the bio digester never needs to be emptied. You keep on throwing the waste into it. As the waste is generated, you put the waste into it. And it digests

Iain Milnes: 00:10:28

it aerobically in the presence of oxygen. So there's no smell,

Ian Richardson: 00:10:32

right. So the basically like a stomach effectively, like the way stomach works,

Iain Milnes: 00:10:38

it's like our own stomach, you know, we don't sit down and eat all of our food in one sitting. We're constantly digesting. And the machine is also constantly digesting. And the more often

Iain Milnes: 00:10:50

that you feed it, and the longer the working days. So if you feed it 24 hours a day, instead of 12 hours a day, the more it's going to eat,

Ian Richardson: 00:10:58

right, but do they have sort of acid in them like a normal stomach would?

Iain Milnes: 00:11:02

Well okay, so So I call it like our human stomach. But our human stomach is anaerobic right? Where it's digesting in the absence of oxygen. And this machine is a robic where it's

Iain Milnes: 00:11:15

digesting in the presence of oxygen. So no chemicals go into the machine only only what we call the power design, which is the blend of microorganisms and enzymes, which are going to do this

Iain Milnes: 00:11:29

digestion. But in addition, you know, in our stomachs, we have a medium to be able to house the microorganisms that will do the digestion. In the biodigester, there is also a medium which is small

Iain Milnes: 00:11:44

cubes of chips, which house the microorganisms and their irregularly shaped to be able to distribute oxygen and moisture amongst the food to be able to accelerate that digestion process.

Ian Richardson: 00:11:59

Right. Okay. So on the face of it, it seems simple. But actually, there's a lot of thought and quite a lot of intelligence gone into it. There's a it's quite complex process, I would

Ian Richardson: 00:12:09

imagine.

Iain Milnes: 00:12:09

Well, yes. And it's evolving. You know, as I said, earlier, we're now shipping our seventh generation product. And the technology has changed, the software has changed to be able to

Iain Milnes: 00:12:21

enhance the digestion of the chips have evolved to be able to suit the marine environment, their microorganism blend has changed. So yes, we're still doing lots of r&d on the product and developing

Iain Milnes: 00:12:37

more and more. Okay, and is there anything that you can't put into a bio Digester, the machine will eat whatever you and I can eat, right. But in addition, it can eat things like pineapple heads and

Iain Milnes: 00:12:51

pineapple shells, it can make eat small chicken bones, small fish bones, but the large meat bones, it won't digest. You know, we're still digging up dinosaur bones from 100 million years ago. So we

Iain Milnes: 00:13:05

know that they last a long time. And also things such as the stones of avocados and peach pits won't get digested,

Ian Richardson: 00:13:14

they just sort of stay at the bottom or they fall to the bottom. If they if they accidentally get in there. They'll stay at the bottom and you clean them out, presumably or filter them

Ian Richardson: 00:13:22

out.

Iain Milnes: 00:13:23

No, you know, the machine has a shaft with arms on right. And the machine rotates everything in the drum. Yeah, on our standard on our standard program, it will rotate very slowly for

Iain Milnes: 00:13:38

about a quarter of that time. So for about five minutes, it's actually stirring or mixing everything in the drum. And then for 15 minutes, it's at rest while the microorganisms are doing the

Iain Milnes: 00:13:49

digestion. So nothing's staying in the bottom of the drum, everything's getting moved around. And using a manual mode, an operator is able to move the arms and take the any foreign objects out of the

Iain Milnes: 00:14:04

drum as needed. Right. Okay.

Ian Richardson: 00:14:07

And then you talked about engaging with the cruise and maritime industry, sort of When did you say 2016? I think

Iain Milnes: 00:14:15

what 2016 We sold our first machine onto a tanker ship. But we got into it in big time in 2019. When I was I was recruited by this major cruise line as a subject matter experts to visit

Iain Milnes: 00:14:32

them at their bases in Cozumel and Mexico and Alaska to help them identify how to solve the problem of plastics going into the ocean. The inherent design of a bio digester is such that as the waste

Iain Milnes: 00:14:50

food is converted into water. It falls through a fine mesh screen at the bottom of the drum and the water is discharged. Just so it's impossible for a piece of plastic such as a plastic straw or a

Iain Milnes: 00:15:05

little ketchup cup, or anything larger plastic bag to exit the machine. So those items will be taken out. Now on that particular cruise line now what they do is, whenever the pulper is going to be

Iain Milnes: 00:15:19

used, it's it's locked, it is unlocked by an environmental officer, the environmental officer stands there, while the operator is putting the waste into the pulper to ensure that no plastic is going

Iain Milnes: 00:15:32

into the pulper. And then the environmental officer locks it afterwards. And it's those poll person that overall scheme that we're replacing not only on that major cruise line, but on many other

Iain Milnes: 00:15:45

different cruise lines as well.

Ian Richardson: 00:15:47

Okay. And in terms of the machine, because you started out with obviously land based machines and then switched into or expanded into cruise lines in maritime did you have to make many

Ian Richardson: 00:16:01

adaptations to the units to be safe at sea, or

Iain Milnes: 00:16:05

Well, I have to confess that when we put the first machines onto a cruise ship, they fell to pieces completely. Even though you can't really feel it, the cruise ships always vibrating.

Iain Milnes: 00:16:15

And although at that time, we had been selling our machines on land for over nine years and thought we had a pretty solid product. It turns out, it wasn't rigorous enough and robust enough for the

Iain Milnes: 00:16:29

cruise industry. And so we had to go back to the drawing board and really work out how to make them robust for the cruise industry. And the software is very different, the plumbing is different, the

Iain Milnes: 00:16:42

metalwork is different. So we have a marine version, and we have a land version, a lot of the improvements that we have on the marine version, we've rolled back into the land product. So our land

Iain Milnes: 00:16:54

product is much more robust than it was five years ago as well.

Ian Richardson: 00:16:59

Okay, and is there a different footprint in terms of the size of these units compared to marine and inland? Because obviously, space is always limited on a on a ship, isn't it?

Iain Milnes: 00:17:10

Yes, we have eight different sizes of models, which will accommodate anything from 10 kilograms a day up to 3000 kilograms a day, the larger one not being suitable for going on a ship.

Iain Milnes: 00:17:25

But some of our marine customers are using those on their private islands, right? Yes, so obviously, everybody wants a tiny little machine that will digest a huge amount of waste. And, and that's just

Iain Milnes: 00:17:38

not practical, you know, so. So the sizes of the machine for marine and land are the same, the digestion tends to be greater on a marine machine, because they're typically feeding it 24 hours a day.

Iain Milnes: 00:17:52

Whereas in the average hotel or restaurant, there'll be feeding at only 12 hours a day, or 14 hours a day.

Ian Richardson: 00:17:59

Right. And now they able to cope with the amount of volume of waste, because you mentioned some stats earlier, which is I mean, if you've got a three 4000 Passenger cruise ship does

Ian Richardson: 00:18:12

that's a lot of waste. Is that amount of waste able to be consumed by the machines, or do you still have to use a mixture of traditional composer?

Iain Milnes: 00:18:22

Well, okay, so on many of the ships that we're working with, they're removing all of the pulpits and putting biodigesters down. And so I was on a on a ship recently. And in the main

Iain Milnes: 00:18:35

gallery, they have four of our fairly large size machines for of the LFC 300. And so just in the main galley that that those machines can digest maybe two tonnes a day, and then they would put some in

Iain Milnes: 00:18:50

the recycling center. We're doing a new design for one of our major cruise ship companies, where they have five of our machines in one room, five of the 500 kilogram machines in one room. And so yes,

Iain Milnes: 00:19:06

we have on the other hand, we have one ship based actually in the UK, which has 15 of our smaller machines on it. And so yes, fitting, fitting the machines into a retrofit to swap out the pole pose is

Iain Milnes: 00:19:21

not trivial. It requires thought. And so we have experts that would go on to the ship with the cruise line and help them decide how best to install the machines and where best to install them. So we

Iain Milnes: 00:19:34

just did a survey, for example, at a cruise ship up in Glasgow, for example, where they're going to put, I think six machines onto that ship.

Ian Richardson: 00:19:44

Okay. And what about the operational sort of maintenance of these machines? Do they cost a lot to run or is it a large sort of capital expenditure of them and compared to traditional

Ian Richardson: 00:19:57

pulping machines?

Iain Milnes: 00:19:59

The price problem with the pulping machines is that they are very difficult to maintain. Because if a knife or fork or piece of cutlery goes into the pulper, then the grinding mechanism

Iain Milnes: 00:20:12

is broken. And we've we've had stories from ships where they've had to spend enormous sums of money maintaining the existing pulper systems. And swapping out for one of our biodigesters tends to be a

Iain Milnes: 00:20:30

relatively low cost alternative to maintaining or upgrading the pulposus. So we had one chip, for instance. And I think the cost to repair and upgrade the poppers was one and a half times the cost of

Iain Milnes: 00:20:44

installing the biodigesters. So it was a no brainer for them to get something that was more environmentally sound, and lower cost and lower maintenance. But all machines are fairly simple to maintain.

Iain Milnes: 00:20:58

As you said earlier, in principle, it's very simple. You have a shaft with a chain, and a motor and a gearbox and some electronics to drive it. So it's not a very complicated system. In that regard.

Iain Milnes: 00:21:12

The devil is in the details, obviously. But yes, they are fairly low cost to maintain and keep running. And we've had a machine on the cruise ship, which we installed in 2009 has never broken down.

Iain Milnes: 00:21:25

Well, after we install the second rev of it, after we got them working, it hasn't broken down in over, you know, in over four years. So,

Ian Richardson: 00:21:36

yeah, that I mean, that's yeah, compared to the eight sounds like there's a lot more moving parts on a pole bug which can go wrong, it seems

Iain Milnes: 00:21:44

it's not moving parts, it's just that, you know, they're relatively small, they get overloaded, the motor burns out, but it but it's the blades that get worn out, and then you have to you

Iain Milnes: 00:21:57

have to go in and mess around with it. The poppers typically would connect into the vacuum system. And because the waste is not that fine, that may come out of the pulper, then sometimes the vacuum

Iain Milnes: 00:22:11

system blocks up. And so there's all kinds of problems associated with it. So so a ship that can take the time to replace the pulper with with biodigesters is going to see a significant improvement in

Iain Milnes: 00:22:26

maintenance and operational costs. Okay,

Ian Richardson: 00:22:30

in terms of food waste, then the industries is really taking steps to reduce food waste, you know, such as removing self service buffets, there's a lot of energy goes into preparing

Ian Richardson: 00:22:41

the food and then waste is traditionally pulped, which ultimately impacts the climate. If all waste on ships was bio digested, resulting in no impact, or Well, little impact, if the only waste product

Ian Richardson: 00:22:54

is water, do you see a situation where some cruise lines or the perception might change that they might start to increase waste again and throat because we've got the option to throw it away without

Ian Richardson: 00:23:04

consequence potentially

Iain Milnes: 00:23:05

our machines weigh the amount of waste that goes into the right and report it on the numerically and graphically on the color touchscreen, but also that connects out to the cloud and is

Iain Milnes: 00:23:22

sent up to a server that can be accessed by the owner anywhere in the world. Our major cruise line company, which has hundreds of machines, has the vast majority of those connected to the internet,

Iain Milnes: 00:23:37

and is trying to get every one of them connected to the internet. So knowing how much waste you have on a ship or even in the main galley as opposed to the recycling center. Knowing that allows the

Iain Milnes: 00:23:51

operator to be able to identify where the waste is occurring with the objective that it can be reduced. The LFC biodigesters all connect up to the LFC cloud. And we have recently introduced a major

Iain Milnes: 00:24:07

feature for our major cruiseline company to allow them to very very quickly compare the waste on one ship with the waste on another ship of the same size with the same passenger base and to see how

Iain Milnes: 00:24:21

much waste one is producing versus the other. And obviously if you put one into the crew galley for instance, if you have machines and the crew galley, you can compare the waist on one crew galley

Iain Milnes: 00:24:33

with the waist on another crew galley on a different ship. And so our major customer is loving this feature that we've recently introduced. And the objective as you say the objective is to reduce the

Iain Milnes: 00:24:44

waist but if you can't measure it, you can't control it. And so first part is to be able to measure it, get all the machines measuring it. Now we can go even further down than that, in that we have

Iain Milnes: 00:24:58

NFC cards So that can be used in conjunction with the machine. And so, for instance, we can identify whether or not a particular food is fruit or vegetables, or meat or fish that's going into the

Iain Milnes: 00:25:11

machine. And we can report that as well, on the cloud. At the moment that the cruise lines are too busy to be able to use those features. It's a very hectic, it's more for for them to do that on on a

Iain Milnes: 00:25:27

basis. But we have many land customers who are using these NFC cards, and being able to identify where the waste has been generated.

Ian Richardson: 00:25:38

What are the possibilities of sort of aggregation? I guess, when you get to that level of really being able to aggregate that data across the whole fleet that really gives a lot of

Ian Richardson: 00:25:47

power? I would imagine?

Iain Milnes: 00:25:49

Well, yes. So our major cruise line company can easily see on any day, any minute, any hour, how much waste has been ingested into all of their machines on all of their chips on all of

Iain Milnes: 00:26:04

their brands, instantly, and be able to easily drill down and find out where the major waste is. And so this has proved to be very, very insightful for them, since we introduced this grouping feature

Iain Milnes: 00:26:17

earlier this year.

Ian Richardson: 00:26:19

Okay, great. And what's sort of the next steps? What the exciting things that you've got coming up this year in terms of power? Not I assume you'll be at Seatrade?

Iain Milnes: 00:26:27

Yes, we definitely Seatrade Yes. And so people can come and see our machines at sea trade, we will have our LFC 25, which is the smallest Biodigester that we have, we have that installed

Iain Milnes: 00:26:40

on some mega yachts and also on cargo ships, not very applicable for cruise ships, I'm gonna have one of our LFC 200 biodigesters, which is a smallest size machine that's used on cruise ships, we're

Iain Milnes: 00:26:54

also going to be showing a vacuum system to be able to interface the biodigesters to the existing vacuum system used on pulposus. And so this is a new product that we are just starting to ship to

Iain Milnes: 00:27:10

customers, we have a cruise ship company that's very interested in having it connected to a vacuum system, rather than to a pump system.

Ian Richardson: 00:27:19

What are the benefits of that?

Iain Milnes: 00:27:22

Well, on the existing ships, they may have a vacuum system for the pulper. Right. And if they're replacing the pulper, then we need to interface into the vacuum system. Okay, on previous

Iain Milnes: 00:27:33

cruise ships, there's also a line in the kitchen, which is a waistline, and so on other ships, we can actually just simply send our waste into the standard waistline that comes out of the kitchen out

Iain Milnes: 00:27:46

of the galley. But this particular company wants to use its existing vacuum system to move that organic waste to a holding tank where it may get further processed before had been discharged in the

Iain Milnes: 00:28:00

ocean.

Ian Richardson: 00:28:01

Okay. And just sort of closing then I mean, what's your vision for Power Knot and the buyer digestion industry? Because it just more and more exposure and sort of having the whole

Ian Richardson: 00:28:13

cruise industry using biodigestion?

Iain Milnes: 00:28:15

Well, it's not just the cruise industry, it's also the cargo ships. And that, you know, there's a lot of waste is generated by a lot of cargo ships. And so that's just been discharged as

Iain Milnes: 00:28:26

is and a small Biodigester would improve their reputation, their visibility and their environment. But yes, we're slowly replacing pulposus on all the cruise ships that we know, for new builds we are

Iain Milnes: 00:28:41

being designed in which obviously is more preferable than having to try and retrofit it. You know, there are a couple of major cruise ships which are being built currently, where we're actually

Iain Milnes: 00:28:52

shipping now for those ships that are going to be sailing 2024 or 2025. So it's something that every cruise ship should be having. There's no doubt about it. They shouldn't be discharging, ground up

Iain Milnes: 00:29:06

waste, possibly with plastic into the ocean.

Ian Richardson: 00:29:10

Oh, great. I mean, this has been really interesting and educational, certainly for me and hopefully for our listeners too. So Thanks, Ian, thanks so much for your time. And I look

Ian Richardson: 00:29:20

forward to catching up with you see trade global in Miami. Fort Lauderdale in March. Yep. See you then. Thanks for joining me on this episode of Tech Talks from The ICEWay and seatrade cruise. I hope

Ian Richardson: 00:29:34

you took something from it and I very much look forward to seeing you next time.