Eat. Drink. Cruise. | Zach Sulkes, Carnival Cruise Line

Ken Taylor: 00:00:02

Have you ever wanted to know how was that done on border who's really behind the various initiatives that take place within the bars and restaurants at sea? Or how to transit hospitality really impact the F&B experiences that are fantastic, and that guests enjoy while cruising? Then Eat. Drink. Cruise. is your podcast! Sustainability, unique and distinct experiences, reshaping beverage consumption, culinary innovation, supply and demand and today's commercial world. And the people that make all of this happen is actually what our Eat. Drink. Cruise. podcast aims to cover. In 2024, the outlook for cruising expects to see over 35 million guests on board which is a 12% increase year on year according to Cruise Lines International Association. And so this podcast really becomes a sneak peek behind the scenes of a dynamic industry. Whether you're a cruise expat or a successful supplier or newcomer supplier or just an F&B fanatic, bite size conversations are what this podcast are all about. My name is Ken Taylor and welcome to the show. We have a great lineup of different players throughout the business, including operators and consultants and influencers. It's a holistic perspective on the status of cruise f&b today. With us today, we have Zach Sulkes, you might be missing out if you don't know Zach, welcome to the show, man.

Zach Sulkes: 00:01:31

Thank you very much, Ken. Appreciate you for having me.

Ken Taylor: 00:01:33

You bet. Zack joins us really having spent? I mean, is it 24 years?

Zach Sulkes: 00:01:38

that would aged me a little bit, Ken but yeah, over 20 Definitely over 20 or 20.

Ken Taylor: 00:01:43

So Zach joins us with over 20 years in the industry. I mean, a lot of years with one particular brand that most people probably know you from and that's Bacardi. I mean, you spent 14 or so years with Bacardi.

Zach Sulkes: 00:01:56

Yeah. 14 years Bacardi. Currently now two and a half years at Carnival, and previous to Bacardi six years at Norwegian Cruise Line. been around the block?

Ken Taylor: 00:02:03

Yeah, you've got a couple cruise lines behind you as an operator, which is a big plus, not everybody in the industry has that. It's interesting when you think you've been at two major cruise lines, you really have a unique perspective, and we'll talk about that. But you're AVP of beverage operations for Carnival. And a lot of people don't know, other parts of your background. I understand not only do you have an MBA from University of Miami...

Zach Sulkes: 00:02:29

I do!

Ken Taylor: 00:02:30

and you're a former math teacher.

Zach Sulkes: 00:02:33

I started my life after college as a high school and middle school math teacher. That's correct. Yes. And I'm an assistant athletic director. I didn't tell you that before. I used to coach women's varsity soccer and men's varsity baseball.

Ken Taylor: 00:02:45

Awesome. Are you involved in any cruise line? Do you guys have a sports team that you I

Zach Sulkes: 00:02:50

I just focus on beverage. I focus on beverage.

Ken Taylor: 00:02:54

Just focus on beverage. Well, so you live in Coral Gables. Right. Are you one of those bikers?

Ken Taylor: 00:03:00

I am not. They are large groups of bikers. But yes, I see them all the time. I am not one of them.

Zach Sulkes: 00:03:07

types. Exactly. I've been here about eight and a half years. But yes, it gives us very nice place to live. And no, I'm not one of the bakers and quick plug for my gym. I do the F45. That's 45 minutes of high impact fitness and went there this morning. So good exercise,

Ken Taylor: 00:03:28

do workout every day.

Zach Sulkes: 00:03:29

Try to do about four to five days a week.

Ken Taylor: 00:03:31

That's awesome. I mean, especially to just survive in Miami. You've got to do that. But more importantly, in a job like yours, managing beverage for 26 cruise ships. Is it 26 or

Zach Sulkes: 00:03:43

26? Today? Yeah, 27 after Firenze comes out in April.

Ken Taylor: 00:03:46

So you and I talked at the F&B@Sea show last year. So that was our first year we were on stage. There's a lot of senior operators there, which is great. Of course, the supplier response to last year show was amazing. And I'd have to just put a big shout out to all the suppliers who contributed to this show. And it's a great networking event, I'd be remiss not to mention this year's F&B@Sea will be at the Mana Wynwood Convention Center. And that is April 10 And 11th. There is a big awards program as well. So we're really excited if you haven't been informed or aware of there will be a first ever awards program presented by seatrade in the F&B@Sea show on the I believe it's the 11th. Really it's kind of like two shows in one I even think there's going to be transportation between the Miami Convention Center and the Mana Wynwood one, but details on that go online will give you that information. Are you aware of that awards program either.

Zach Sulkes: 00:04:46

I'm actually very much and just a quick plug and you know, happy, happy and elated to see F&B@Sea and it's evolution. It's been a long time coming Seatrade has always been a great show, but it's been a long time coming that we actually focus on possibly the most important Part of cruise experience definitely from a net promoter score perspective is food and beverage. More guests have a positive experience or unfortunately sometimes a negative experience due to food and beverage when they're onboard entertainment is big, obviously, casinos big etc. But food and beverage really drives everything. So it's great to see Seatrade expanding into that area.

Ken Taylor: 00:05:18

Yeah, I mean, when you walk on a cruise ship alone, I mean, just the offerings nowadays, really takes F&B to a whole new level. You don't have to be too passionate about it. But for those who are it becomes, you know, incredibly immersive and fun and for yourself. I mean, so you're the global beverage leader for Carnival Cruise Line. So you're the guy that oversees all of the beverage activity. I mean, hashtag choose fun, right? So hashtag choose fun. The global leader of hashtag choose fun. What does he choose for a cocktail? And when you go home and you relax? What is the global leader of hashtag choose fun choose?

Zach Sulkes: 00:06:00

actually, I specifically choose anything that tastes good. However, more specifically, I love a rum old fashioned as well as a Mezcal Negroni. That would be my go to

Ken Taylor: 00:06:13

do you make all your own cocktails. You make cocktails for your wife?

Zach Sulkes: 00:06:16

I do. Yeah, I make my own and for her and for her friends.

Ken Taylor: 00:06:20

We're friends. So you don't bring over one of the bartenders from the ship.

Zach Sulkes: 00:06:23

So no, no, it's too hard to get the most customs immigration on that stuff.

Ken Taylor: 00:06:27

What's your favorite restaurant in Miami? I have to ask you also because I'm heading there shortly

Unknown: 00:06:32

Oh, wow. I think it depends on the location. Because Miami is not that close together. I mean, South Beach is far depending where you live... close or not close. Who? I say Coate. Korean barbecue place.

Ken Taylor: 00:06:48

I think Korean barbecue keeps coming up. Yeah, I am loving Korean barbecue right now. It is very good scope. Yeah, I hadn't heard that one

Zach Sulkes: 00:06:57

Coate is how you spell it.

Ken Taylor: 00:06:59

So the one thing I wanted to talk to you about is just the environment. Because I was reading a couple of different articles, the pressure on the cruise industry continues with a focus on the environment. And I will have to say having been with the industry for many years, myself and knowing the industry, it sometimes gets a bad rap. You know, when you think about the volume of product and people on you know, at sea, and you know, notwithstanding there's a 28,000 square foot or acre park in, in in the center of Florida that probably has some pressure on them too, as well, right? Whether it's a hotel industry or any part of the industry, the pressure is on. But for the cruise industry, I think it's time for the food and beverage team to step up. And I think, you know, looking at some of the initiatives, what is carnival doing this sort of step up in the whole sort of approach to the environment.

Zach Sulkes: 00:07:57

I'll get to beverage in a second. But carnival as a corporation, not just cruise line has some hefty goals on the sustainability side. But as it applies to food and beverage on the food side, they're quite significant food waste reduction goals that were set against 2019 that were you know, in my mind, we will clearly achieve them we're we're we've already achieved our interim goals to get there. But I think food waste is a big one for not just carnival but every every cruise line industry and the beverage side you know what, what we're doing and it's public knowledge is we have a partnership right now with eco spirits, which is around circular packaging. And the goal being to to rid the universe in you know in the earth and you know, as it applies to the cruise lines, but of single use classes, it applies to spirit industry. You know, right now, for instance, Bacardi Superior is our number one moving spirit onboard. We probably use that bottle for about 15-20 minutes on a busy embarkation day, and then it gets thrown away. So you think about the carbon footprint of transportation, the outer shippers, the inner shippers from a cardboard perspective, everything else that goes into all that. And we use it for 15 minutes. So partnership with them on trying to work better to reduce our carbon emissions in it's one Bacardi bottle at a time today. But we've had some really good results so far with a pilot, we've been going on three ships, we're going to take we've reduced our usage, around 30,000 Bacardi bottles are out of use, if you will. So I'm using some circular packaging technology from eco spirits in partnership with Bacardi and carnival, it's been a really, it's been a very fruitful endeavor, just you know, in terms of our, our engagement with sustainability. When

Ken Taylor: 00:09:39

you're talking crews, a lot of people get, you know, kind of interested in the numbers right, so 30,000 What does that mean? 30,000 bottles. That's since

Zach Sulkes: 00:09:48

we started that in... We started that in late July, and the pilot on three ships and about half the bars on their ships.

Ken Taylor: 00:09:54

So that's only three ships. So you know, that is just a tremendous amount. and it just takes the pressure off of what you have to do with those bottles on board when they are going down to the incinerator,

Zach Sulkes: 00:10:07

correct. I mean, we already have a great recycling program on every ship. So it's not necessarily the backside of that that we're talking about. It's really on the front side of the production of those bottles, the shipping of those bottles of Bacardi, the labeling of them, you know, them, putting them in the boxes and everything else. So it's really all that aspect up until it gets to the ship. After we use them. We recycle, which is great. But still, there's just massive upfront use of carbon and everything else that we're trying to reduce.

Ken Taylor: 00:10:31

And it's unique and a unique approach. I mean, clearly, everyone's aware that you know, keg beer usually goes on board as a cake and then gets reused.

Zach Sulkes: 00:10:32

Exactly.

Ken Taylor: 00:10:33

reuse your keg, some some cruise lines or are doing the one way cake, which also has some advantages to it. But the effort is there. And I think that story is really a unique one to tell. So I'm hoping you guys tell that story. When you start to expand it, you'll probably expanded part of it this year.

Zach Sulkes: 00:11:01

Yeah, absolutely. It'll be expanding probably in the next month or two months. But yeah, you mentioned keg. And that's, that's how they explain it to the layman. We get a keg small four and a half liter keg of rum delivered to the ship, we use it and offload it and back it goes to eco spirits. And their relationship with Bacardi. They clean it, they refill it, they send it back to the ship. So it's really again, it's not quite that simple. But from a layman's terms, it's really a small keg of rum that just keeps going back and forth between us and eco spirits and gets refilled to reuse it gets refilled reviews, et cetera. So as a way to not use the bottles and throw them away.

Ken Taylor: 00:11:35

What was the effort on the public health side? Because USPH Usually,

Zach Sulkes: 00:11:39

USPH has actually been very supportive, which we were surprised that and we thought that would be a bigger challenge. Very supportive, because the measures we have in place of how we offload them. Because once they're offloaded, and they go to eco spirits plant. They had declare everything with actually the USDA at that point, because they're shoreside endeavor to make sure that they're cleaning them and getting them sanitized in the right endeavor. So they've been very supportive throughout the process.

Ken Taylor: 00:12:07

That's really cool. Yeah, getting that story out will be will be good, I think for the industry and hopefully pass on to some of the other cruise lines. Or let's talk about like X for a moment. This is right now, I think actually just got announced a couple of days ago that you have a fourth XL ship coming out, correct?

Zach Sulkes: 00:12:26

Yep. Yep. I think it was two days.

Ken Taylor: 00:12:31

That joins the fleet will see a Mardi Gras, Celebration and Jubilee.

Zach Sulkes: 00:12:36

Jubilee, correct!

Ken Taylor: 00:12:36

Yeah. And jubilees 6400 Passenger cruise ship.

Zach Sulkes: 00:12:41

The whole Excel class ship is around the same. Yeah, they're all around 6.

Ken Taylor: 00:12:44

they're all They're all the same, which is I mean, I actually didn't know that they were that big. And the reason why I mentioned is because I think we'll Royal Caribbean's Oasis class is about 6400 max capacity. And you've got several of those, it really is a trend to go on the some of some of these really big ships, and so forth, ones coming out. breweries are on them. So it's sort of certain standards you have where you have like certain things on the ships. You have a brewery on every ship or on this class.

Zach Sulkes: 00:13:13

We have a brewery on every XL class ship and every VISTA class ship. So Vista class started, I think, just launched in 200..16/17. Sorry, I forgot my head. But yeah, since then, every new ship that we built, purposely built a we we have a brewery on board. So making our own beer. Every ship has its own Brewer, we have a brew master leading that program. So the guests on board, those ships have beer that's as fresh as you're going to find anywhere in the world. It comes directly Yeah.

Ken Taylor: 00:13:42

The partner with brew hub on that.

Zach Sulkes: 00:13:44

So we've, we've already looked through hub only for the beer for the chips that don't have breweries. So the goal being you're on a brewery ship and you you order beach lager. If you're on a number we ship, you can also order Beech lager, and that is made by brew hub in Lakeland, Florida, with the specs that we gave them from our ships so they take the same recipe replicated and mass produce it so they can put it on the other ships that don't have.

Ken Taylor: 00:14:05

And these beers were presented at the Great American Beer Festival.

Zach Sulkes: 00:14:09

2019 We won Best Porter for our smoked Porter, the soulmate, or today.

Ken Taylor: 00:14:10

I've talked to someone who loved the IPA. So you have an IPA, you have a wheat...

Zach Sulkes: 00:14:21

IPA, Caribbean wheat, or corn is around for onboard the ships and then we allow the Brewers to have fun as their desires go as you know, think about if you go to any small craft brewery in the US and they they make some standard stuff, but they're always playing around and making unique items. You know, if it's Christmas time, they're making something that tastes more like Christmas and then Oktoberfest they have an Oktoberfest beer and they're always playing with flavors, whether it's mango infused wheat beer, you know, they're always doing fun stuff.

Ken Taylor: 00:14:50

I haven't seen that. So where is the brewery on board? Is it part of the venue or is it

Zach Sulkes: 00:14:55

Yeah, on the XL class ship? We have a partnership with Guy Fieri breweries tied into the same same location on XL class. It is also part of that concept, but just at a different location on the ship.

Ken Taylor: 00:15:17

So when we were talking earlier, you had mentioned, you know, your perspective, which is really unique because, as isn't I mentioned earlier as well, the operator typically knows the brand knows the industry really well, in general, but having spent so much time with Bacardi, also your stint with NCL gives you a unique insight of what all of the cruise lines kind of generally think or how they're kind of, you know, approaching the industry from a food and beverage standpoint. How does that help you with carnival? I mean, I'm sure it helps you in ways, but give me a few thoughts as to where it helps leave you.

Zach Sulkes: 00:15:53

Yeah, I think that what Carnival has done great for 50 plus years now is be relatively consistent on brand, whether it started as the fun ships or today to hashtag choose fun day. And now me as part of that team, I continue to drive that consistency and brand execution. However, I think some of my past experiences and when I look back, I think I've been on 100 Different cruise ships in my life, whether there's Carnival, or NCL, or Royal Caribbean, Celebrity, Holland America, Princess AIDA, Costa, carnival, UK, carnival Australia, and seeing so many different operations and so many different ways of working, whether it's wine lists, or cocktail programs, etc. And just understanding how everybody does a different brings a little bit of uniqueness to how I approach what we're doing, because they still want to stay within that consistency of delivering the brand proposition. But there are always better ways of working and better ways of doing things. Even overlaying that with that brand proposition. So it's just it gives me a little bit of a unique exterior commentary on things. I just had a meeting earlier today with somebody and then use the comment that I still use two and a half years into my job here is that I'm still new to carnival. And I do feel that way because Carnival has been around for 50 plus years. And I still learn things every day. And the ability to bring in new unique concepts of and ideas of ways to handle what we do and how we do it. It has been very beneficial.

Ken Taylor: 00:17:12

So when you're making decisions, and you've talked about this, your sort of first filter is what's best for Carnival. What are those checkboxes that you go through when you when you make a decision because I mean, your operators across the industry, like any industry, but really, you're faced with a lot of decisions that impact, you know, a large number of employees, a huge amount of revenue, and the impact that f&b has just in the whole operation and the guests experience. Obviously, revenue is going to be a checkbox for you. But what what's the process you go through and you think about decision making for Carnival,

Zach Sulkes: 00:17:47

I believe and have believed for quite some time that the guests slash consumers slash customer, whatever you want to call them comes first. I used to think that when I was at Bacardi and I was calling on the cruise lines, cruise lines came first in that conversation. And today as our guests that come on board, so they always come first from again from a staying on brand and giving them that fun experience that they expect to have when they come on board. That is definitely first and foremost. They're the ones who choose to come back. They're the ones who pay for our drinks. They're the ones who recommend us to their friends, etc. So the guest is definitely always top of mind. Of course, revenue 1000 times. Yeah, I mean, we are in business, right? We were public traded company, we were here to make money. But we can't do that without guest satisfaction. So revenue is is massively important. And then I think we we talked about it before you and I but you know, having that math teacher background that I used to be back in the day, definitely provides me with a lot of fact based decision making with the concept always overlying is a good for Carnival. So even if it means I need to give away some drinks to this program. That's okay, as long as that program is going to yield more money for Carnival a perfect example of how that comes to life is on our VISTA Class ships over the past three to four years, you know, let's say COVID out of it. And the positive over the three to four years, we've taken out the guest facing bar from the casino. And we've been doing nouns one of our older spirit Class ships as well. And the reason for that is we can replace that space with casino slot machines and tables that will yield a much higher return than a guest facing bar. I had to expand the pantry a little bit and do some different things from a service bar perspective to make sure we can still produce a number of drinks we need to produce. But it's a realization

Zach Sulkes: 00:19:32

and a conversation back and forth that whilst we all love to go to a bar and sit down if I can still deliver the drinks in a way that is meaningful for the guests and don't need that space to do it. Well let's give up that space to figuring out a way that's good for Carnival where carnival can actually deliver better guests expectation and a better revenue for the for the shareholder. So that's what I mean by that we're if it's good for Carnival, and we're looking at it from a fact based decision making process and it's good for different beverage operations.

Ken Taylor: 00:19:58

Yeah, and it's having connection With the guests, right in their, their desire for the experience. And so that point is actually a really interesting one. Because you know, guests typically probably don't sit at a bar and a casino too often there's a lot of noise, there's not a lot of opportunity for a particular vibe that would promote sitting at the bar. And so yeah, moving into a service bar makes probably a lot of sense. There are other bars plenty of them where people are having great experiences. Like I know on XL class, you have several you have a standard there were several bars are determined or created to be unique and different to that ship. And I imagine you're doing that even with this fourth ship now that obviously you've been working on it's been recently announced this fourth XL ship, but tell me about that. So each ship gets a different bar experience.

Zach Sulkes: 00:20:50

Yeah, correct. So you know, Carnival has some very standardized programming across the fleet, whether it's the Red Frog rumba, or the Blue water tequila bar, Piano Bar Alchemy Bar Punchliner are nightclubs sometimes called liquid or something else, but you can see those on all the ships.

Ken Taylor: 00:21:08

Right?

Zach Sulkes: 00:21:08

And where we've taken a little bit different approach on the XL classes ships is to create some unique bar experiences only for that ship. So not even for the class, but only for that ship. So when Mardi Gras first launched, it had a dedicated area to New Orleans. Now that it's in that call that exactly, and how we brought it to life is there's a fortune teller bar there, for instance, and that bar was created with the concept of the cocktails are very Mystique led and more focused on what you would find, not necessarily on Behrman Street, but off Behrman Street and some of the I don't want to say the seedier parts of town and Orleans, but places you'd really find some very unique cocktails that, that lead into the mysterious aspects of things that happened in New Orleans, whether it's you know, graveyard tours and things like that. And we've kept that same approach on celebrations, same thing have some very unique bars that are tied into the marketing concepts, and the guest experiences that we want on that ship and then followed through the Jubilee as well. So Jubilee, you know, the latest example, one of the bars is called Doctor Inc, obviously, if you put that together as drink, and it's focused around under sea and the creatures that you find there, and the leader of that bar is an octopus. So everything we did at that bar, we tried to create cocktail experiences that tied into things you would find under sea from an organic perspective. You know, whether they're starfish or, you know, similar things, we're using Swedish Fish as garnishes and then in infused vodkas. We're using different tenses of squid ink and certain cocktails, we're using different types of seaweed in cocktails. So we're trying to, you know, tie in to the guest experience is really driving what we do from those new bars.

Ken Taylor: 00:22:43

And when you're putting this together, like now you realize that there's the design piece to it right from a shipboard architecture standpoint, here's the space, it probably starts out as a whitespace, or an area that's been determined as a bar, but how do you then go to the development? Like, what's your process? Do you have a team that does that? Are you ever like an ideation team that does that or

Zach Sulkes: 00:23:05

our in house product development team together with our if it's a new build with our new build team, really bring that space to life from a space perspective, then we have internal conversations, and I have a very small team of four, I am one of four, that work shoreside beverage operations, we are teeny, when you look at it that way, in terms of the amount of revenue and the size of how many ships we have to oversee, but it's us, you know, we we've worked together, the four of us work together closely with that product development team to figure out what it means from cocktails to the cocktail names to menu development uniforms, you know, everything that would you would see from a guest perspective, what the back bar is gonna look like what brands are gonna put on the backboard or not. And then working also with the new build team on on just that, you know, are there changes we can make to the bar that make it more effective operationally, but also really look good and deliver the guest experience? Because like you said, that space has already been white boarded as a space for a bar. And then we start early days on little aspects, they're going to help deliver the guest experience.

Ken Taylor: 00:24:06

So the former kind of math teacher background or an MBA super smart guy, obviously like the numbers part beverage is probably the funnest numbers game to play. I mean, you drop a zero in revenue, it's a huge deal.

Zach Sulkes: 00:24:21

Yes,

Ken Taylor: 00:24:22

not every Hospitality Group can say that. Or if you add a zero on cost, that's another meeting or two you're gonna have to go into

Zach Sulkes: 00:24:29

Yeah,

Ken Taylor: 00:24:29

but between you know, managing the business and creating these concepts are you down the middle you'd like to spend more time with one or the other.

Zach Sulkes: 00:24:43

I would be remiss if I said I'm happy that XL four is a few years away. To give us some time to rest since I started during the restart, I started during shift number four being restart an event the time that the fleet was 25 ships... so it's been fast and furious for the past two and a half, two and a half years, you know, restarting ships restarting ships, launching a ship restarting ships launching your ship restarting ships launching your ship. So I'm, I'm pleased and honestly, you know, not necessarily for the revenue aspect because it's going to slow down for the revenue growth will slow down without new ships coming, but to give us some time to breathe, because it's really been, it's unfortunately been all all at the same time developing, managing, you know, hiring, firing, you know, all aspects of what beverage operations isn't being enough right here. But it'd be nice to have a little bit of time to take a breath, stabilize what we're doing work on efficiencies, not necessarily on the cost side, as just efficiencies overall, how we do things at bar, what do we batch what are we don't batch? You know, how can we make things better from a bigger perspective, you know, all kinds of things that need some attention that we just haven't had the time to, because it's running, you know, to get new things up and running all the time.

Ken Taylor: 00:25:55

Right. So I guess, refining and innovating, you have a little more time now to do that. When you think about some of the things that you want to do, like, whether it be a trend that you think is is something you should look at, or just something you want to do. Maybe you have time to do that now or a little more time than you otherwise would, is there something that you've been looking at that you can tell us that you kind of want to think about or look at, yeah,

Zach Sulkes: 00:26:22

and it's not gonna sound sexy at all sounds, he's spending more time on our onboard teams, they've done a great job, our revenue is up, like everybody's up from a beverage perspective, you know, many, many, many percent, obviously I can't tell you the numbers, we are a public company. But it's been extremely, extremely great growth. And that's really due to the teams on board. And we put a lot of pressure on them over the past, you know, couple years to perform, and we haven't had the time to dedicate back to them. We all do our training all the time. You know, everybody, every cruise line, every operator that runs every bar does some type of bar training here and there. But it's really looking more at them from a wellness perspective and how we support them better, and training them on guest interaction, not just on the brand on how to make a drink. That's the easiest stuff, guest interaction, how you handle the sales process, how you address guests, you know, if we have extra time, make sure you're putting water down for them, just all the little things that help make the experience better for the guest. But then on the back end, all the little things that help our team members become better people, because I think we all as a cruise industry don't spend enough time focusing on how we treat our team members we do we want to treat them well, who welfare is a big part of what we do. But from a formalized process of you're really diving into how can we support them better to address the needs and the challenges they face.

Ken Taylor: 00:27:34

And that's such a great opportunity across all of the cruise lines. I mean, the talent you're dealing with today, the raw talent is a force, it's probably not been seen in a long time just because of the way the industry came back. And the willingness and awareness of available employees around the world who are stepping up at this point to join the industry. And a lot of times that means less experience, right, less skill, and less exposure to the things we're talking about from a guest handling skill set or just bringing a personality out in front of the customer on board. How to do that, right. It's it's a big deal. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Zack. I really appreciate the time to chat with you. I hope everyone's enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much.

Zach Sulkes: 00:28:20

I appreciate it. Ken thanks to Seatrade and I will see everybody at F&B@Sea and see I will definitely be there!

Ken Taylor: 00:28:24

alright, well we'll see either April 10 or 11th. Thanks a lot.

Zach Sulkes: 00:28:27

It sounds good. Take care.