Episode 4
Cruise Convos | Rafat Ali, Skift
In this week Cruise Convos SPECIAL, Claudine is joined by Rafat Ali, Founder & CEO of Skift, a company providing news & insights into the travel & tourism industry, named one of the most influential people in tourism worldwide!
Rafat offers some outside perspective on the cruise industry trends & traveler behaviour.
Plus, Claudine quizzes Rafat on how technological innovations will likely change travel marketing, tourism operations & traveler expectations into the future - from FinTech to generative AI!
Transcript
What is currently happening in our cruise industry today? Join me for Cruise Convos as we discover and learn from cruise industry leaders across the globe all within 28 minutes! I'm
Claudine Pohl:Claudine Pohl and I'm the host of Cruise Convos. Today we have Rafat Ali! Rafat, Welcome to Cruise Convos.
Rafat Ali:Hey Claudine. How are you? Thank you for having me.
Claudine Pohl:Thank you for being here. Rafat Ali. We're gonna start off with some quickfire questions. And then we're gonna jump into some more fun things. What an honor to have you. You're
Claudine Pohl:definitely one of the people in our tourism world that I completely look up to Rafat quickfire questions. Ready?
Rafat Ali:Ready.
Claudine Pohl:All right. Number one, what is your favorite cereal?
Rafat Ali:muesli? I just I love just putting it overnight into the fridge and and just get done with in the morning.
Claudine Pohl:That's awesome. Number two, what is your favorite season of the year?
Rafat Ali:I would say summer I liked the heat. I'll take the heat. I go to India with family in summer. And it's very hot, but the kids love it. And that's what it is.
Claudine Pohl:Epic. And last question one of your favorite vacation spots.
Rafat Ali:Faroe Islands. We were there in a few years ago with our now older son, I have a younger son since and would love to go back with them again.
Claudine Pohl:Awesome. Thank you so much. Now let's jump into some questions. Tell everybody tell our cruise community about yourself and your epic company Skift.
Rafat Ali:So I started Skift. We started Skift 11 years ago. It's our 11th year. So it's a business media company focused on the business of travel news research conferences, marketing services for
Rafat Ali:the travel industry cutting across sectors. So people in the cruise community know us for our larger picture, big picture coverage about where the trends and travel are going where the future of
Rafat Ali:travel is happening. They probably attended our conferences, I've downloaded our reports, we have Skift research. On a day to day basis. We don't cover cruises on a day to day news basis. But we
Rafat Ali:certainly cover all their earnings of these public companies. We cover some of the new innovations that are happening on and off. And obviously a lot of our focus is on changing traveler behavior. So
Rafat Ali:that's very applicable to the cruise industry from that perspective of what digital booking habits or what are people asking for during their trips, post trips, etc. So a lot of our focus is on
Rafat Ali:changing consumer behavior and how that affects all of travel.
Claudine Pohl:I love that you lead a team about 80 people you mentioned, right?
Rafat Ali:Yeah, 80 people now we were a physical company as in we had an office in New York office in small office in London, we had people in Singapore prior to the pandemic. And as happened with
Rafat Ali:the pandemic, we were about 60 people then. And much like every other part of the industry, including cruises was shut down during the whole COVID we had to cut back and we were down to about 40
Rafat Ali:people. And we started hiring again in 2021 and have hired 40 people since then, probably more because some people have left as well. And so now we're fully virtual company, we made a decision to give
Rafat Ali:up all of our offices. And I'm sitting in my house and Queens in New York, but I've been sitting for the last three years. And we run a global company now we have employees in all over us. A lot of
Rafat Ali:our folks moved out of New York to different parts of the of the country, some international as well, people in UK, India, or the parts of Europe, South Africa, etc. So we're Philippines. And so we're
Rafat Ali:now hiring in all different places.
Claudine Pohl:That's wonderful. And you do still get your team together, I read that you're going away on a retreat and you have an awesome sponsor for that. Tell us just quickly. Where are you
Claudine Pohl:taking your team? I think it's Iceland, right?
Rafat Ali:We're going to Iceland. So we started doing these retreats in 2014. We were going to attend people and went to Iceland there. So sort of a full circle moment are we survived COVID. We were
Rafat Ali:not doing very well. And as a company and Intrepid travel, which is the one of the largest adventure travel company is our sponsor. They're basically taking us there, but I'm really excited. I've been
Rafat Ali:to Iceland, I think seven times this is going to be my eighth time going.
Claudine Pohl:Oh wow.
Rafat Ali:I was there a week after the famous volcanoes stopped. And that was my first time when I went and the famous volcano that I cannot pronounce. or So yeah, we we are we the big part of being
Rafat Ali:a remote company is not just be remote from each other but be able to meet multiple times a year. And so we do around our conferences. And then we do with our annual retreat and then different people
Rafat Ali:meet in different cities where they are!
Claudine Pohl:absolutely amazing and I can tell, you know, you are such a great leader, and just how you bring your team together even though you're apart, you're still bringing them together. It's
Claudine Pohl:just wonderful to see. Rafat, I read an article about Hurtigruten. Hurtigruten. I hope I said it correctly to all our listeners out there. And just tell us just a little bit about that.
Rafat Ali:You pronounce it better than I will. So I'm not going to let you pronounce it is that some of the criticism in general the cruise industry is just the environmental impact that these large
Rafat Ali:ships have had on destinations on the on the seas and the oceans that the cruise on, and Hurtigruten has, has put very strict limits on zero emission on using electric cruise ships, which I think will
Rafat Ali:be a huge game changer for the industry. And so I think the thing you saw was I praise them on LinkedIn, and the fact that they've committed to this. And I think that's my general senses technology,
Rafat Ali:in many ways will help mitigate the impact. This is true in the airline industry, obviously, they're very much focused on sustainable aviation fuel, and equivalent is coming to the cruise industry as
Rafat Ali:well. And then better planes more efficient planes lighter footprint on the environment. And so similar, I'm sure you cover in your daily worlds of the cruise world is and should come to the cruise
Rafat Ali:industry. I do believe that smaller ships is the feature of the of the industry, particularly as customers demand a sort of more intimate experience versus the mass experience. There's always going to
Rafat Ali:be mass, I think one of the things that none of us should turn up be snobs about is the mass tourism part. Because that has to happen for the industry to sustain itself, a base of mass tourism is
Rafat Ali:necessary can't just be a luxury travel in all parts of the industry. And people who are mass at some point could be part of the luxury world as well. So you have to sort of think about that. So I
Rafat Ali:think from that perspective, I'm excited about innovations like these that help move the cruise industry, and some of the criticism that is had forward.
Claudine Pohl:You're right, we do see a lot of smaller lines coming into the market as well. We have a team and we're like talking, we're like, Oh, what's this cruise line? It's a small line that's
Claudine Pohl:coming in lots of new luxury or niche lines starting up. So you're right.
Rafat Ali:And let me just say this final point. I do think that so for instance, if you ask majority, the people in our company, would you be open to cruises and most of them would be first time
Rafat Ali:cruisers, if they if they go. If you pitch to them, a mainstream mass ship, guaranteed, there's reason why they're dead, they haven't cruise before, they will not be open to that experience. But if
Rafat Ali:you pitch them river cruising, it's a different experience, which is a very more experiential, integrated with the environment, with the destinations and etc, where you're going. So I think
Rafat Ali:personally, like, again, I'm not a cruiser cruiser, per se. But I would love to go on the cruise on the Amazon and Peru or Brazil or in other countries, or Nile certainly or you know, any of these
Rafat Ali:places. I was in Senegal, and they have this incredible cruise that we didn't, we weren't able to go last year my wife and I went, I forget the exact river that you go down in Senegal. But I would
Rafat Ali:love to do that. So that's I think, where the younger experiential traveler would be a better pitch in general. So I feel like that's where industry should definitely focus beyond the massive Did you
Rafat Ali:already
Claudine Pohl:I love it. Let's talk a little bit about technology. I see you always talking about technology, AI, there's lots of different things. Just share with our listeners, give us a little bit
Claudine Pohl:of your knowledge.
Rafat Ali:Yeah, so it's a fascinating time, particularly after COVID where, as you know, as a lot of industry was closed. But the larger companies were focused on retooling a lot of their businesses,
Rafat Ali:particularly around tech, whether it's reservation systems or new customer service systems, because obviously customer service was a huge concern during COVID, early on in the COVID. And so a lot of
Rafat Ali:the companies have retooled and looked at new systems and tech and put investments in it. It was a time where they could do that when they didn't have the mass of tourists coming in. And so just in
Rafat Ali:the last few months AI as you know, everybody's talking about AI and Chad GBT and the tools that have come in. And there's just so much potential and this is some of the videos I've done on LinkedIn
Rafat Ali:as well as obviously Skiff covers that on a daily basis. And there's a lot of buzz about front end, AI as in chatbots and chat GPT type tools, and that's only one part of the AI world. What AI can
Rafat Ali:unleash on the operational part of Have cruises or hotels or airlines or airports etc. is we're still very early in this. And the technology around how AI understands complex data, complex language,
Rafat Ali:and makes meaning out of it is still we're still very early in it, even though the the technologies is is leapfrogging literally by the day. And so we're sitting here a few weeks into March. And the
Rafat Ali:company behind Chad GPT is company called Open AI launched their new version of this technology. And it's exponentially better than the one they launched three months ago, exponentially better on
Rafat Ali:understanding like, you could feed it an image, any image, like you can feed it up, you you open your fridge, take a photo of whatever's in your fridge, and say, Tell me what's in here. And what can I
Rafat Ali:make out of this for the next three days, it will not only understand the image on what it is, if it's milk, vegetables, whatever, here's what you can make from it. And here's, here's the recipe. And
Rafat Ali:this is just a small example. So we are in just an incredible time for tech. So imagine the potential it has for surely, travel marketing in general, yes, you can generate a lot of content a lot more
Rafat Ali:faster. But also, so make the work of your team a lot more efficient, but also operationally, whether there's hotel back of the house or crews back of the house, where the work of and as you know,
Rafat Ali:labor shortage has been a perennial issue, particularly over the last few years for our industry. So you'll see a lot of this stuff coming in. So a lot of our coverage is focused on the tech side,
Rafat Ali:there's so much action on that side. And then the other part that I think we've been covering quite a bit on the tech side is payments. And sort of a broader topic of FinTech in travel, and how
Rafat Ali:payments, which have always been a friction, particularly internationally as your travel is becoming a lot more seamless, whether it's mobile wallets that have come in travel and you know, even things
Rafat Ali:that are mainstream now, like Apple Pay have made our life so much easier. And then FinTech has come in into how we book and pay for travel. For instance, let's take an example of your industry
Rafat Ali:cruise, you want to book something online, but you you're not sure. So you want to hold this price for 24 hours or a week, for instance. So you pay $10 Extra, and you can hold this price for a week.
Rafat Ali:So those types of innovations in booking where you are able to sort of break down a bunch of things in the booking process and pay for these conveniences is now coming into the booking process quite a
Rafat Ali:bit, or price guarantee, in case you pay me $25 more and I'll give you this lowest price. If you do get the lowest price later, I will rebook you at the lower price and refund you the difference. Oh,
Rafat Ali:so. So that type of innovation on Fintech is it has come into travel is there already? And I don't know if it's come to cruises yet, but it certainly will if it hasn't already.
Claudine Pohl:So interesting. We think about I'm going to jump over to tours, tours or when you know cruise ship lands or goes not lands. But when it arrives at a destination. You mentioned about
Claudine Pohl:working and how there's a demand. We're experiencing this with tour guides, language barriers, and I can see some of this technology really coming in play
Rafat Ali:100% I mean, the lifeblood as you very well know of the travel industry. This is the consumer part I'm talking about his itinerary, right? itinerary generation, this is true for cruises are
Rafat Ali:true for travel agents decision for tours, anything. And these AI tools make it so much easier to generate personalized itineraries. Whatever your criteria is, obviously people comes in all stripes
Rafat Ali:and shapes and everything else. And so it being able to generate custom itineraries. The language translation has also the trunk there is an incredible article in in the New Yorker earlier this year,
Rafat Ali:about the exponential leap in translation technology. What has made that possible, and it's probably the most fascinating tech article I've read all year so far, in terms of how quickly the LEAP has
Rafat Ali:happened. And for what reason I mean, it's too technical. It was very technical, but they made such that you could understand as you read it as a as a layperson. And so, the real time translation
Rafat Ali:Nirvana that you and I have sort of dreamed of as in to say, I'm talking to you, I don't know your language, but somehow it gets translated to me in real time. Whether through the phone on what most
Rafat Ali:likely to the phone right? Is there. And so it's just a matter of technology propagating to the masses at this point. So, language barriers 100% is the thing that technology can solve a lot of things.
Rafat Ali:It won't solve human understanding, but it will at least solve the issue of being able to understand each other's language. If not emotions!
Claudine Pohl:Emotions! Emotions too do you think?
Rafat Ali:well, I mean, I say understand language, and then it's up to humans to do the emotion part of those part. Okay. Hopefully, that emotion part will continue to stay the domain.
Claudine Pohl:Name. I love it. Okay, Rob, that it's honestly an honor having you again, just I just think the world of you. Now you are named one of the most influential people in tourism in the
Claudine Pohl:entire world, like, wow,
Rafat Ali:and you're saying, What am I done to deserve this? Is that what you're asking me?
Claudine Pohl:No, absolutely not. I follow you. I know, I know everything. I don't know. You're everywhere. You were just in the UN, you were like, You're everywhere you're around the world. You meet
Claudine Pohl:a lot of influential people yourself. Tell me a story. Who have you met that has left you like, wow,
Rafat Ali:in our industry, I'll sort of stick to the travel industry. I think I've met Brian Chesky, the CEO of Airbnb, and he is probably the closest that comes to being a celebrity, in like the CEO
Rafat Ali:in travel industry level. Because unlike fashion, our industry doesn't have like celebrities, CEOs, right. But whenever he comes to speak, he and he speaks at conferences. And our main one that that
Rafat Ali:happens in September in New York is the skift Global Forum that many of your readers or listeners may know. And all the public company CEOs are there. And when he walks in one, the room is absolutely
Rafat Ali:overflowing. And then everybody just quiet. Because he's the as close to a rock stars income. But the thing that is incredible about somebody like him is people have controversial views. Like they
Rafat Ali:have all sorts of views along the spectrum about Airbnb as a company and its effect on the world. You can argue that 100% What you can't argue is the dedication that it took for somebody to really
Rafat Ali:take this thing out of their bedroom, which exactly is what it was, to this global iconic brand, that is a verb now required the intensity and focus of somebody like him, young guy, very young guy.
Rafat Ali:Yeah. And he's a he's an intense dude. And, you know, you talk to him, and you'll see the passion. They 1,000,000% believe in their own, whatever they're selling. And you have to 100% believe in the
Rafat Ali:mission in your world, which is, what he's done, and the focus of which he's done. And the design sensibility that is brought to a sector that could have been completely chaotic. Right, it's just
Rafat Ali:people's homes, right? Or, and so he's brought this design sensibility. That's his background, by the way, too. He and his two other co founders came from Design School, which is also very rare in the
Rafat Ali:tech world. They don't you typically have people from the tech world that come. And so they came from RISD, which is a famous, famous design school. So bringing that sensibility. So I've talked to him
Rafat Ali:many times. And I think he, he also has become a very good storyteller. And it's fascinating where I've interviewed enough CEOs or enough executives in this industry, where it's apparent when they
Rafat Ali:have learned how to storyteller because you many times you don't come out of the gate, knowing how to storyteller well, on stage, for instance, and he who I don't think naturally came to storytelling
Rafat Ali:has learned it so you can see when he turns his switch on. And so for me, that's as a media person. That's fascinating. So that's why I'm a big admirer not just to what he's built, but then how he
Rafat Ali:tells the story.
Claudine Pohl:I love it. And guess what, so I am right now in Puerto Plata. I was here working with the port. And I'm actually in an Airbnb right now. My family came down. So we're in an Airbnb. So I
Claudine Pohl:love Airbnb. And one more point I read an article because I get a lot of my news. My Travel news comes from from your channel.
Rafat Ali:Well, yes, yes, yes.
Claudine Pohl:But I read that Airbnb is doing something interesting that they're starting to advertise within how what was it that they're starting? They're looking at...
Rafat Ali:they're looking at adding paid listings and paid listings. As you I'm sure you know, if you go to Google or you go to booking or Expedia or any other booking site, you will see a bunch of
Rafat Ali:paid links in addition to organic links as well. And they have for now kept their experience pure, warm and pure as in NO paid listings. But obviously it's a it's a large, multibillion dollar business
Rafat Ali:for these other companies. So they're, they're looking at it, but I'm very sure that he's going to, you know, if it's Chesky and this Airbnb, they will give a lot of thought to make sure that it
Rafat Ali:doesn't pollute the listings. And one of the one of the criticisms of paid listings is you can't tell whether this is a paid listing, or an organic listing and paid listings overwhelm the actual
Rafat Ali:results. So I'm sure they'll be very focused on trying to make sure that this is the right balance.
Claudine Pohl:I love it. Rafat you have a lot going on it's gift. I know the big conference coming up in September, some of the ministers I work with love going to that conference. Tell me what else
Claudine Pohl:what what should our listeners know, how can they, you know, make sure that they're not only, you know, being involved in everything that our cruise world has, which is epic, but what else can we
Claudine Pohl:learn? Tell us a little bit.
Rafat Ali:Yeah, so we are very for so this year is just we have designated this year and turn the as the year of action. And it sounds so obvious, but because this is the first full year of normality
Rafat Ali:in the travel industry, because of obviously COVID, the last three years were somewhat uncertain. And so a lot of exciting things are happening in the travel industry, the economic downturn, yes, but
Rafat Ali:industry seems to be booming so far as you know, and continues to boom. So we are very focused on new regions. So like Middle East, and I know this for a fact for the cruise industry is emerging to be
Rafat Ali:a big area. So for us from a coverage perspective, it's big. We just launched daily India newsletter, India is emerging to be the India just crossed China as the most populous nation in the world.
Rafat Ali:Very fast growing middle class in there. So Indians will become the largest outbound tourism market, which obviously has direct implications in the cruise industry as well. So we're covering that. So
Rafat Ali:we're looking at launching a conference in Morocco as well. And so there's a lot that I'm excited about our conference Skift Global Forum, which happens in September, this year is 26th to 28. And all
Rafat Ali:the big CEOs are there. So if you want to get a good understanding of what's the best mix, or where the future of travel is going, and and hear from mix of big public company CEOs, but also the people
Rafat Ali:that are innovating on the edges. And what I what I guarantee the people it's the most is the best brain food you can have for the year. If you're in the travel industry.
Claudine Pohl:I love it. Absolutely love what you mentioned as well about the Middle East. One of our team members is from India, and she's coming to seatrade cruise global for the very first time.
Claudine Pohl:So she's got a long flight. Well, she'll be there and I'm sure she'll have a great experience. And you saw Saudi Saudi Arabia just purchased. They just purchased a cruise ship. So lots is happening.
Claudine Pohl:Yeah, yeah. Now, last question. Are you ready for it?
Rafat Ali:I'm wondering what it will be. But yes!
Claudine Pohl:So Rafat, if you could look back in your life, okay, if you could look back, and you can give yourself one piece of advice. What would you tell your younger self?
Rafat Ali:Wow, figure out how to keep your hair. I actually like being bald, to be honest, I don't have to worry, I save I save so much time not having to think about hair. Certainly not that. But I
Rafat Ali:think professionally, trust your instincts. In general. You know, from a business perspective, this is my second company and built and sold a previous company and had nothing to do with travel. But
Rafat Ali:that's what I've done. In general, I'm a big fan of action, action over intent, meaning at all times, make quick decisions and do things versus writing a business plan or like when people start
Rafat Ali:thinking about the business, etc. It's all the tools that that you need to launch your business, particularly if it's a digital, like an online digital type business are available for very low cost,
Rafat Ali:either free or almost low cost, media site creator whatever you want to do is available today. You want to launch e commerce site Shopify, so it's everything is available. And so nothing should stop
Rafat Ali:you. So I'm a big fan of trust your instinct and have a bias towards action. And also people talk about education education in which which university or you should go to and all this stuff. You know,
Rafat Ali:I did my undergrad in India, at a small university and went to Indiana. I did fine in life. So we shouldn't obsess on the younger self. The true thing I'll tell to my younger self and I tell it to my
Rafat Ali:my my kids are young but my other nephews and nieces. It doesn't really matter. Beyond a certain point where you do education what What you get out of it is what's important. But it doesn't matter if
Rafat Ali:it's an Ivy League or not. It's up to you on what to do while at school and what to do after. So don't obsess too much over your grades or the school that you go to etc.
Claudine Pohl:I love it Rafat. I'm on board with that as well. Now, one last thing. If we offered you a cruise on a small ship, would you go?
Rafat Ali:Yes, yes. I already told you. I'm gonna go
Claudine Pohl:You guys are listening!
Rafat Ali:It has to be a river cruise. I will do a River Cruise!
Claudine Pohl:What about an expedition cruise?
Rafat Ali:expedition? I'll do two expeditions. I did one in Burma. Myanmar. 11 years ago river cruise. It wasn't like a cruise. It was just a ship, like a ferry ship. But it was an eight hour long.
Rafat Ali:So I guess that qualifies. But just just fascinating how you can? How can experience life on a boat?
Claudine Pohl:Yes. What I love is just, you know, getting to a different destination and the culture and meeting the people. It's just amazing. Rafat, it has been an honor. I'm going to work on
Claudine Pohl:getting you getting you on an expedition ship or getting you on something small. Okay, I'm gonna work on it.
Rafat Ali:Thank you. And thank you for having me.
Claudine Pohl:It has been an honor. Thank you for being part of Cruise Convos.
